This post was written by Dark_Sage. He is Dark_Sage.
Was it worth the wait? Yes. Except no, not really. But it’s out, so get it anyway.
As to why this matters… If you have any playback issues with Whine-Subs releases, I’m going to first ask what you’re using to play them. If it’s not CCCP, I’m going to tell you to get CCCP and then let me know if that works. It’s the standard I’ve been using since I first started subbing (2003) and it’s the standard I’ll use until the day I die (2011).
For reviews, I will be rocking CCCP on my system. If you see screenshots that portray your release “incorrectly”, I’m going to ask why it wouldn’t display correctly on CCCP. Since it probably should display correctly on CCCP, there is a good chance someone forgot to mux the right fonts in, so don’t blame me.
What it Includes
Site: http://www.cccp-project.net/
Changelog: http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
MPC+Lav Filters+MadVR+xy-vsfilter still superior.
According to the download I just did, only MadVR is missing from CCCP and let’s face it, it probably isn’t needed.
you forgot madflac
>2013
>CCCP
It’s a better *standard* than telling someone to set up their system with what Saka-chan uses. If someone new to anime says “I want to start watching shows on my computer”, I’m going to tell them “Okay, but make sure you have CCCP set up — it will improve your video playback.” I’m not going to tell them to download each filter separately and then configure their system so they all work properly.
This is more of a bare minimum as far as expectations go. And I think it’s an acceptable base for people to work from.
Not sure I entirely agree with you that it’s a better standard vs something libavcodec-based, like mplayer or whatever. Those are consistent and available on pretty much every platform more powerful then a graphing calculator, typically as a single application or install command. I’ve haven’t looked at CCCP in many years, but I assume it stays reasonably up to date. Nonetheless, if there was ever a time where something played perfectly with recent ffmpeg but not CCCP, I wouldn’t blame any group for saying “looks fine in mplayer, go fuck yourself.”
I don’t know enough about playback to argue whether or not Mplayer (or KCP, as xviruz mentioned) is better. All I know is that we as a scene have generally recommended CCCP to the viewers and there needs to be a significant reason for me to adopt a different base standard.
I think the scene’s point of view is: if it ain’t broke, why fix it? CCCP has been the recommended weapon of choice certainly as long as I can remember. MPlayer was only really mentioned due to its compatibility with Macs or Linux or something (I dunno, I use Windows).
They’re all basically the same. MadVR gives video scaling that’s a little bit better. MPlayer2 with gl3 video output does the same thing.
Libass ignores some typesetting if there is an error in it (like a missing end parenthesis or extra comma), but xy-vsfilter will parse those lines the way they were intended.
The only issue with CCCP or KCP is that their not cross-platform, so some people will have to use MPlayer regardless.
GL3 is still not nearly on the same level as Madvr, sorry. Plus, most fansubbing typesetters use vsfilter, and rarely guarantee correct playback with Libass.
Scaling algorithms are on the same level. MadVR _does_ have better dithering though.
Adopting MPlayer2 as a recommended player means that correct playback would be guaranteed using libass. I haven’t seen an error using the current libass that wasn’t a typesetting mistake that xy-vsfilter silently ignored.
There is no compelling reason to change, so no change will be made.
Because mplayer uses libass and >typesetting to libass
Yeah, no thanks.
I know nothing about typesetting, would you mind explaining why typesetting with libass in mind is unpleasant and how xy-vsfilter is better? Well, not that I have a choice either way, being a non-Windows user.
Hm, looking at the project page of xy-vsfilter, it seems the project is open source… I wonder why it hasn’t been ported to Linux.
libass has, last I checked, a bunch of hilarious bugs that makes various tags like \fay pretty useless. Even now, there are many signs that are pretty much mutually exclusive between (xy-)vsfilter and libass – they either work on one or they work on the other. Since everyone else targets vsfilter and most people use it, typesetting to libass is a good way to make your typesetting look broken to most of your viewers.
Libass has… issues. (ex. {\fscx\fscy} scales {\fax\fay}. Therefore, on motion tracking lines, which often have something like {\fs2\fscx2000\fscy2000} due to vsfilter [not xy-vsfilter] not allowing floating point values for {\fscx\fscy}, you often get this with {\fax\fay}: http://afternoonnapsempire.org/files/amagami_plus-utw-libass.jpg )
forgot to mention that vsfilter/xy-vsfilter doesn’t do that ({\fscx\fscy} scaling {\fax\fay}).
And apparently, they fixed that issue: http://code.google.com/p/libass/issues/detail?can=2&q=46&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Priority%20Milestone%20Owner%20Summary&id=46
Well, it still doesn’t render them exactly the same. I tried switching Aegisub to render the subs in libass in the latest episode of R;N just for fun and the lines using \fay were still way off.
Comparison between libass 0.10.1 and xy-vsfilter 3.0.0.211: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/166437
Lines used:
{\fs2\fscx8000\fscy8000\fay0.1}Hey, there.
{\fs2\fscx8000\fscy8000\fax0.1}Hey, there.
@jabashque
Compare this line:
{\fnTahoma\c&H000000&\fs100\an7\fay0.115\pos(240,250)}——————–>{\fay0.0}——>
To this line:
{\fnTahoma\c&H000000&\fs100\an7\fay0.0\pos(240,250)}——————–>{\fay0.0}——>
That’s a good example of the differences. The second arrow is in the same place with xy-vsfilter, but not with libass. You’ll see that libass computes \fay based on the current position, while xy-vsfilter does it by the position of the start of the line.
Thanks for pointing out that scene, Xythar. This should be enough for a good bug report against libass.
@BwackNinja
I think I ended up talking about a completely different issue instead of what Xythar talked about, since I was referring to shearing being scaled by \fscx\fscy. But now I know about another bug.
Do you know that LAV Filter is libavcodec-based? The only difference is that LAV also support various hardware acceleration.
Also, libass typesetting sucks. And right now xy-vsfilter is faster than libass anyway. It’s been optimised to fansub usage (gradient, fbf effect, etc)
There is also KCP from Haruhichan, apparently with madVR now, though I haven’t tried it.
Did they finally include the xy-vsfilter?
Yes. I suppose it would be useful to let people know what they’re downloading. Post updated.
I went to the wiki immediately after downloading it – no update. But JEEB updated it roughly 20mins ago so you might be interested in linking that as well for the complete changelog. (http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/)
Also, xy-VSFilter seems to be the standard now. Well, anything is better than VSFilter.
Done.
Is it me or the release comes out like 3 days after your rambling about it being outdated?
Dude, that’s just scary… Are you God or something?
Looks that way.
And behold! CCCP rose again on the third day.
So you found a TL for Tamako Market?
I found a joint. I’ll make a hype post when everything’s sorted out.
Am looking forward to hearing more about this joint. The show airs thursday evening when we convert to USA timezones. So i’m guessing this means that we should expect an early morning saturday release, huh?
Doesn’t it convert to Wednesday morning, America time? That means you should expect a Wednesday night/Thursday release.
Wednesday evening is probably too optimistic. I highly doubt you can work that efficiently.
Wednesday night is optimistic, sure. But I can knock out a three-pass edit in 1-1.5 hours after I get off work (add another half-hour for four passes). Assuming everything (script, typesetting, timing, scriptless encode) gets finished before I roll on, it wouldn’t be out of the question for QC -> release to take only a few hours more.
How do you do a three-pass edit in an hour? Something doesn’t add up there…
1. Script only (Get the easy stuff out of the way that would slow down the second pass.) 10-15 mins.
2. Video/audio (Watch it through and fix where needed.) 40-60 mins.
3. Script only (Fix any lines that I know need to be fixed but I didn’t have enough time to focus on during the second pass. Quick skim for issues.) 10-15 mins.
Then it goes off to QC. Familiarity with source material/watching it raw before the script is ready for edit can decrease time spent. What, did you think it takes me three hours to fix up a script? I’d consider myself a failure if I spent more than two hours on a script as just an editor. That’s the standard I hold myself to and it used to be what all editors I knew did as well.
by rushing
Janice a meanie.
Totally converted the time zones the wrong direction. Air day is wednesday at 10:30 AM EST. Which might allow for a friday evening release day.
That’d be kind of slow, tbh. If the show doesn’t require a lot of typesetting and/or have a ton of lines, it should be quite feasible to have a Wednesday night release.
I’m looking forward to a glorious joint with Hadena.
<Dark_Sage> Yo just came in to say that I completely support your Tamako Market plans. If there’s any support I can offer, please let me know.
<~Arashi> . 。O
<~Arashi> Am I reading correctly
<~Arashi> Oi someone hit me in the head
<Dark_Sage> I’m actually being serious
<~Arashi> …
<~Arashi> as you wish
<~Arashi> Dark_Sage thnx for the offer.
<~Arashi> we will try to get it out beofre any other group
<~Arashi> .access add Dark_Sage 3
Minimally modified logs. Hadena x Whine-Subs, joint of the century.
well it’s only a matter of QC then.. Arashi is known for his accurate translations so yeah, this will be the best joint of the year. \o/
…
what.
DARK_SAGE, YOU MUST MAKE THIS HADENA JOINT HAPPEN!
It’ll be the funniest thing to happen to fansubbing… EVAR.
…
dude
wtf
>CCCP
>2012
nothanks.jpg
I will just continue using what I have been using for months: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=516729
What you linked is pretty much just CCCP plus madVR, you know.
Plus CCCP doesn’t require me to do shit. Cause I’m pretty lazy. I mean, I’ve setup MadVR and shit before, but if I can just run the CCCP installer and get almost the same thing, then that will be my option every time.
You pretty much just used CCCP, like Xythar stated l0l.
This seems like an ideal thread to ask. What video player do you use these days Dark Sage? I’m still using VLC even though I’ve heard a lot of people badmouth it because, frankly, it plays the files I want it to and I’m too lazy to switch. But the release of the new version of CCCP is giving me a brief flash of ambition to update my entire viewing experienceso if there is a different player I should be using these days I’d like to get in on that.
MPC-HC comes with CCCP, so that’s what I use.
Yeah, MPC ftw. Fansub standard since 2005 (or earlier) for a reason.
Hmm I always get a lot of weird screen artifacting with MPC. A lot of green shit all over the place. Guess I’ll just stick to VLC then, it works for me without ever giving me any grief and really I can’t ask for much more than that.
Do you have any filters, or did you just download MPC and think that would suffice?
I have whatever came with CCCP. I’m too lazy to deal with downloading extra filters and shit when I have a player that works without bothering with that.
And you still got green stuff? Weird.
Sort of sounds like you haven’t updated CCCP since before 10-bit. I’d suggest clearing out (use Insurgent from CCCP site) all old/unnecessary codecs and install the new one. I’ve been using it for more years than I can remember and the only time I ever had problems was when the 10-bit stuff started coming out and I hadn’t updated the software.
Late reply, perhaps, but I’m surprised that noone’s posted about a home-cinema setup. I can’t be the only 20+ that watches his cartoons in the living room via a network streaming device (NAS > Popcorn Hour > AVR > TV)
I still use VLC~
Amen to that.
virtual hi5
I’m so sorry for all of you VLC users.
I should start a Kickstarter to help all you guys out, I’ve heard they’re all the rage these days.
Ask Double Fine…
Fuck you all, I still use WMP.
The funny thing is, I actually have the latest cccp installed. I’m just too lazy to change the default player from vlc to mpc.
Oh, and happy new year to anyone in my time-zone :P
It’d be more interesting if they’d release it at 12-12-12. Like the other time ┐( ‘ ー’)┌
That was the target, but they missed.
What’s the joint with GotWoot going to be called? “[GotTears]” perhaps? Well, I hope it works out!
the viewers will certainly have them
I’ve been using K-Lite – it’s much better than it was to begin with. K-Lite’s had LAV filters and XY-VS filter tweaks for months.
It also comes with MadVR and gets updated with every filter release for those that way inclined.
With the default settings my videos don’t play in the same brightness than your reviews, do you know why it can be?
I dunno, video card issues? I only use default settings to properly mirror the general user experience.
It must be that, thanks ;)