85 thoughts on “Fansub Review: [Kaitou] Akuma no Riddle (Episode 05)”

1. Lmao.

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2. >Get a staff channel, you fucking idiots. You shouldn’t be relying on script comments to discuss things.

   top kek

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3. So, I take it Funi is worse too?

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   • I don’t even wanna think about how bad Funi’s release is. We’re gonna assume the only choice here is between Kaitou and Watakushi to preserve my sanity.

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     • And one of them was just started episodes past 5 a few days ago, and has a backlog of other shows to do first.

       Just whyyyy?

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4. I don’t see the problem with script comments, they’re fun. :(

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   • No, the comments in their release aren’t about the show, they’re about the subs. The comments are discussing what each line should be. And with multiple comments per line across the majority of the lines in the script, you’re basically getting the most inefficient fansubber discourse ever.

     Here’s the first line: {TL-Funi:Tokaku-chan, why don’t you leave this place, after all, and come live with your auntie?}{Ed-Bear:}{Tokaku-chan, why don’t you leave here and come live with auntie?}{QC-Kaitou:(Because she is not specifining which aunt and clearly means herself, I think we should use the capital form as we’d use for “Mom” or “Dad”, when addressing.)}Tokaku-chan, you want to leave here and come live with Auntie?{QC-vil:Tokaku-chan, you want to leave this place and come live with Auntie?}
     Here’s the second: {TL-Funi:The city is a fun place, you know.}{Ed-Bear:}You know, the city is a fun place,
     Third: {TL-Funi:And you’ll have lots of friends at school.}{Ed-Bear:}and you’ll have lots of friends at school.
     Fourth: {TL-Funi:We’ve got sweet candies and interesting books…}{QC-Kaitou:(“We’ve got”? Is it safe to assume she lives in the city. Actually, yes it is. I’m retarded.)}We’ve got sweet candies and fun books to read.

     I could go on, but I think for everyone’s sanity it’s best I leave it at this. If you wanna experience more for yourself, grab the script off AnimeTosho or something.

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     • Why does it even matter?

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       • In terms of the grade? It doesn’t. But it’s an inefficient method of communication that’s so far outside the norm it’s worth bringing attention to.

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         • To each his own, I suppose. During script QC it can often be a bit more efficient than switching back and forth between the pad and IRC, especially if you only have a few things to say.

           Though I usually remove internal discussion from my own releases before they go out.

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           • What pad are you using that doesn’t allow for in-pad chat?

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             • There’s that too, but I find it easier to process when the comments are left next to the line they’re relevant to instead of having to refer to them by numbers and the like.

               As I said, to each his own.

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               • I certainly think they’re useful, especially since:
                 1. I’m not on IRC all the time

                 2. TL@PST, Editor@EST, QC@EU doesn’t work out well

                 3. For my especially “liberal” lines, I add a sickeningly “literal” translation in the comments so the edit doesn’t bring about inaccuracies

                 Usually it’s all it takes to clarify things, and Amanatsu certainly seems to agree (although it could also be because he has a decent grasp of Japanese). Hidden jokes within the comments are an added bonus.

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                 • Yeah, Futsuu does 3 as well (though it’s not as necessary since we usually work at the same time). I think it’s definitely a good idea as long as the TL can be bothered.

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               • God damn, you don’t quit. In mostly every new post you are there to whine about something. Is like you got a hard-on for Dark_Sage.

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                 • I’m so sorry that you had to read relevant discussion of fansubbing methods on a fansub review blog. I guess I should bow out and let you circlejerk and shitpost in peace.

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                 • I LOL’D

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     • Yeah, that looks tedious.
       @Xythar: How long did it take you to get comfortable with these kinds of comments? I enjoy putting in jokes and maybe a TL note every now and then, but massive comments like this would make me rage.
       I guess this is academic. As a TL, I get to put in comments first and never look at the script again. The other guys will have to deal with it. XD

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       • I’ve been using that format ever since I started Vivid. We’re all somewhat wordy types so between the QC, the TL/TLC, and me, the script comments thing generally works out best for us.

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   • Comments are fun if they are actually entertaining to read. Reading QC-Editor-TL discourse is not entertaining, so there is no reason for these comments to be there. Even if it is a possible means of discourse, these sorts of comments should be remove by the time reaches the final QC. It’s kind of like how you don’t leave random blank lines in your script, even if they help you work with the script while in the pad.

     I don’t think it is necessarily wrong to discuss particular lines in the form of comments (I do this when I am QCing the script while the editor is finishing up the script), but these comments should be removed as soon as the conflict is resolved.

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     • My point is more that it isn’t really the end viewer’s business whether there are comments in the script or not. They’re not visible during playback and not intended to be read, so the subbers are really under no obligation to make them entertaining or non-cluttery. Same with removing blank lines – many people do this, but there’s little reason to other than OCD.

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       • I can understand your point of view. Leaving comments in the script makes sense for the same reason as commenting your code while programming, that is, for future reference (if the group does batches, those comments can help understand why a particular change was made)

         I suppose it is possible to maintain two versions of the script, removing the comments for the RC and keeping a script with comments for reasons mentioned above.
         But hey, we don’t get paid for this stuff, so not really worth the effort. And since D_S goes to the trouble of viewing the script, might as well leave something there for him so he wont be disappointed. XD

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         • Eh, I wouldn’t suggest leaving anything there just for me. Odds are I won’t even look at the script you want me to. But if you wanna leave stuff in for people in general to find, go for it. Throwing easter eggs inside scripts is something fansubbers have been doing for as long as I can remember.

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         • @Tobikage

           That’s exactly what I do in my case. I keep two different script of the same thing. One is for the release which everything is cleanup using http://puu.sh/8FrNe/33c5d977f1.png and another without touching anything.

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       • It is true that there isn’t any reason to take them out if you consider the final product, but part of the attractiveness of softsubs is that you can extract the subtitle file and look at the script and see what the group did with their signs, kara, etc. I guess a sort of parallel would be programs where you can look at the source code. Another example would be in science and math academia, where the work that led your results is actually essential to understanding how you got it and whether or not you fucked up somewhere. Still, you don’t submit all the scrap work and failed simulations and graphs you have with your paper. You organize the material so it concisely and adequately supports your thesis.

         If you are working on something, you are by no means obliged to keep your workspace neat and tidy. Still, I think it is responsible and in many ways important for your work to readable and well-formated for others who might look at it later. Just a thought.

         Again, I think this a valid means of working on a script, but your final script should not be cluttered and filled with six different versions of each line.

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         • I don’t think the analogy works here. Sure, this script has a shedload of comments between tags, more than your average script, but they still aren’t anything that compromise your understanding of whatever is in the .ass file. It may actually be useful to someone who’s looking for the logic behind certain editing/translation choices. If you’re looking for the typeset lines, it’s easy to spot them without touching the rest of the script, so I don’t see a problem for that either.

           At the end of the day, I’m pretty sure most of the leechers won’t even extract the subtitle track from the container anyway.

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           • You’re right. I guess that the analogy doesn’t really work, because the clutter isn’t actually inhibiting the leecher’s ability to comprehend the script. I do, however, believe the philosophy of wanting to produce a clean final product still should apply.

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             • Yeah, if you really want to follow the clean and safe route, it’s definitely better to remove all the clutters from the script. Though not very frequent, having so many comments within curly brackets isn’t really a good idea in the first place. It’s really easy to forget the closing bracket and fuck up the whole episode without realising it.

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               • To be fair, on most normal renderers, not closing the bracket won’t hurt, it’s not opening the bracket that’s the problem.

                 http://i.imgur.com/84WuXK3.png

                 Hell, when I was working on KLK, my script had occasional links to wikipedia in it, just so I could easily keep track of the various references I’d dig up.

                 These days I keep two files around. One is the pre-release script with most of the comments intact, and one is the release script, where I strip all comments.

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                 • http://puu.sh/8GFUp.png

                   Not closing the bracket will cause your comments to show on vsfilter (and all variants), and since rather a lot of people use vsfilter variants, I would recommend always closing your brackets.

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                   • Ah, I’m a dirty libass-user. I’ll keep it in mind, thanks.

                 • vsfilter will show your comments if you don’t close the brackets.

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     • I’m gonna chime in here too. I’ve often left notes on a script when I edit, either to refer me back to lines that require further TLC, or lines I’ve edited but not been happy with – so something along the lines of: {I’ve really screwed the pooch here but I dunno what the hell to do with it. Have fun, QCers!}. It works as a tool for discourse when you’re working with a script because the people after you will be seeing it line by line like you are – it also works when, as is the case with most of my scripts, there’s a long period of time between me doing the thing and people poking me to discuss lines :D

       If I talked about it on IRC, there’d be an obligation to do it there and then or let the point get lost in the background chatter.

       I’m not sure I’d be able to handle it for every line though. That seems a bit hardcore :S

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5. Why won’t any good people pick up this show? Every sub fucking sucks man. I might as well drop the fucking series.

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   • But then you’ll never know if they kiss or not!

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     • That riddle may never be solved.

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   • Zero-Raws have a pretty good release, in my opinion :>

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   • I dropped the show halfway through episode 1 and the subs had nothing to do with it. XD

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6. kaitou already have Staff chan, actually. and it’s not just them that used comment line.

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7. >I dropped the show halfway through episode 1
   the shittiest of tastes, don’t you like edge?

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   • apparently i’m incompetent at replying to people

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     • Nah, sometimes the comments section borks. Not enough for me to bug puddi to fix it, but enough for it to get annoying.

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   • idk, I just lost interest when those girls started all that drama about a few cellphone straps.

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8. Do the extra comments make the filesize noticeably larger? I know most people seem to have unlimited space, but it makes a difference to me.

   Since Kaitou’s better than Watakushi, after all.

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   • No, they’re just text so they’ll just add maybe 4kb at most.

     Honestly, complaining about script comments is a little low, even for Dark_Sage. Not only does it help communicate across timezones when staff isn’t on, but it can also be used with a translator or TLC to decide whether a change induces a translation error, or if it is just a good edit.

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     • Oh, I agree with him that they shouldn’t be left in the final release. They’re part of the process, but they should remain in the process section, not the final product. Any good QCer will go through a script before finalising it and take out those comments.

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       • Pretty much. I see nothing wrong using comments for workflow, though I think those comments should be removed before release. Just general fansubber commentary is fine to leave in as far as I’m concerned, however. Always fun to demux scripts for easter eggs. I will never forget the comments in that one episode of rori’s Kokoro Connect.

         Also, what about the QCers who just make reports and have the editor/tl go through and decide what to change? Would you say the person who applies the QC/finalizes/last who touches the script should remove them in that case?

         Actually, what do people think about QCs who just make reports?

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         • As one of those people you’re talking about (an editor who mixes QC reports), I can confirm that yes, I do get rid of all those bracketed conversations, and it should be the responsibility of the person who finalises the release (script side of things) to do that.

           Before the speedsubbers took over and became the norm, reports were all QCs ever did. They never touched the script, even if they were the best QC around. My main group (Saizen) still uses QC reports as its main way of QCing. I see the argument for both ways of doing that particular process, but each one has its flaws, for differing reasons.

           I’m more likely to cheerlead for QC reports than a lone QCer altering my edited scripts, though – unless I really trust them not to muck up my edits :D

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           • Yeah, if people can be arsed and you don’t care about the extra time, doing reports is the way to go. You get more people thinking about stuff and better consistency.

             That is, unless maybe whoever applies makes the changes while sleep deprived and adds in mistakes that the QC(s) never gets to see. I guess you could run just a derp-check final QC after apply, but now we’re talking snailsubs release schedule.

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         • I don’t see why they need to be gone from the release at all. I mean, they’re not visible. It’s just extra effort for the last person who touches the script to remove them, especially if they remove some comments but not all.

           And what does this extra effort get? You get to hold back a little bit of info from whoever is interested enough to demux a script? Why? To be honest, these types of comments could help a BD group edit and pick through the scripts later. Or help out the original group for batch if somebody loses the pre-cleaned versions.

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     • >complaining

       It didn’t affect the score. I just thought it would be interesting to point out what their script looked like, since I don’t often see that many comments in a script. But yes, I think they could have managed this more efficiently than the script back-and-forths they had.

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       • If anything, this article is a free advertisement for kaitou, showing that they put some effort into their scripts.

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9. Hmmm, well here are my comments on some of the issues raised in the review.

   Other

   D_S: Get a staff channel, you fucking idiots. You shouldn’t be relying on script comments to discuss things.

   Well we have a staff channel but since we have an international staff in different timezones, our free time doesn’t always coincide. This allows QC folks who may not be fluent in Japanese to see the various revisions to a given line over time as opposed to just the final edit while not necessarily having to be online to view it. It may not be the optimal method but it works and is self-contained.

   Script Review

   Karaoke

   > ah もう美学 | ｢誰にも触らせない｣
   > Ah mō bigaku | “darenimo sawara senai”
   > It’s my aesthetics that say, “I won’t let anyone touch her”

   D_S: The fuck do aesthetics have to do with anything?

   美学 “bigaku” translates as “aesthetics.”

   aes·thet·ics [es-thet-iks or, esp. British, ees-] noun
   1. the branch of philosophy dealing with such notions as the beautiful, the ugly, the sublime, the comic, etc., as applicable to the fine arts, with a view to establishing the meaning and validity of critical judgments concerning works of art, and the principles underlying or justifying such judgments.
   2. the study of the mind and emotions in relation to the sense of beauty.

   I guess we could have said “It’s my philosophy…” but that wouldn’t have made much sense either. It’s a song lyric.

   Main Script

   > If you are done visiting the grave, be on your way back to your mundane world.

   D_S: The hell’s with that second piece of the sentence? I doubt any form of speech outdated enough to consider that combination of words valid even exists.

   “be/get on one’s way” – to start or continue a walk, journey etc. Perhaps somewhat archaic or stilted. Seeing as she is the matriarch of the Azuma clan, I thought it had a nice ring of authority and cadence of a bygone age.

   > 演目は 王道中の王道｢ロミオとジュリエット｣！
   > Enmoku wa ōdō-chū no ōdō `romiotojurietto’!
   > The play will be one of the all-time classics, Romeo and Juliet!

   D_S: Ooh, an all-time classic? Shit, that must make it so much better than a regular old classic, huh?
   classics -> greats

   Well this line could have been translated something like “This play will be a king among kings…” or “This play will be the greatest of the great…” so just saying “a classic” did not seem to do it justice. So yeah, it is so much better than a regular old classic.

   > If you skip out, you won’t get credit for the class.

   D_S: Maybe Japanese classrooms are different, but I don’t think many schools run off the “skip one assignment, lose credit for the entire class” system.

   Yes, we probably could have just left that as “If you skip out, you won’t get credit.”

   > I hear she’s into theater and that sort of thing.

   D_S: And what might “that sort of thing” be? Theater?

   Sure, or dramatic performances in general, or something vaguely related.

   > First the achievement tests, and now a school festival, eh?

   D_S: I don’t think in the history of studentkind anyone’s called an achievement test an “achievement test”.

   定期テスト “Teiki tesuto” could be “regular” or “periodic” tests. Besides academic achievement tests however, I couldn’t think of any other kinds of recurring tests. If somebody has a better idea, I’ll make note for future reference.

   > It’ll be okay.I will take care of things for sure.

   D_S: What’sQC?

   Oops, yeah a late change introduced a typo. Our bad.

   > From the very beginning… I already knew, right?

   D_S: The fuck kind of question is this?

   A rhetorical question? While we could have used an idiom to make the point like, “I went into it with my eyes wide open,” I don’t think it would have clarified it any better.

   > Let’s get out of here quickly before anyone else comes.

   D_S: Let’s play a game: if you can justify the use of “quickly” in this sentence, you win! (Do note it’s my policy to never play games I can’t win.)

   quick·ly [kwik-lee] adverb with speed; rapidly; very soon. They wanted to get out of there with much haste before anyone else arrived, as opposed to taking their time leaving. So I emphasized it with “quickly.” There, I justified it. You didn’t say it had to be a good justification.

   > To have other people die for your sake… What’s that feel like? Sacrificing someone and outliving them…

   D_S: In the context of having someone die for you, it’s pretty much a given you’re going to outlive them. What are you actually trying to say here?

   > How can you live with that and keep on smiling?
   > I will smile.

   D_S: That doesn’t answer the question.

   Philosophical dialog is philosophical dialog.

   > A clan of assassins that’s reigned supreme over the dark side of this country since ancient times. The Azumas of the East. The Kuzunohas of the West. In every era, they’ve served those in power, secretly altering the course of history.

   D_S: Sounds like two clans to me.

   clan [klan] noun a group of families or households, as among the Scottish Highlanders, the heads of which claim descent from a common ancestor: the Mackenzie clan. The series states that “Originally, Kuzunoha was the main family and Azuma was the branch family.” They are a group of families that claim descent from a common ancestor. Thus, they are a clan.

   > If you have questions, don’t ask that lackey, talk directly to me.

   D_S: Guess where the semi;colon goes.

   Ooh ooh, don’t tell me… Uhh, is it at the end?

   > In a normal world, Haru-chan would be there on the other side.

   D_S: A normal world? No, she’s saying that the world is normal but their roles within it aren’t. In this line, you can distill the essence to: “Hey look at all those normalfags being all normal. I bet Haru would be just another normalfag if she wasn’t such a pitiful victim of circumstance.”

   I prefer to think she meant that if the world they inhabited was a normal world, then Haru would be living her life just like the folks on the other side of the bars.

   > なんの因果かねぇ｡
   > Nan no inga ka nē.
   > What kind of bad karma do you suppose that is?

   D_S: “karma”? The fuck are you talking about? You aborted the fucking point of this scene with your shitty edit. (Funimation had “luck”.)

   Hmm, I disagree. I think that since 因果 could be “cause and effect; karma; fate,” I think they all had a hand in their respective destinies as opposed to it simply being “luck.”

   > Haruki-san’s stage set… It left room for us.

   D_S: “It saved us.” would have been far less awkward a line.

   Perhaps, but I dislike having inanimate objects do things.

   > “Even with the entire class and the whole world wanting you dead…”

   D_S: Last I checked, even hyperbolically the whole world doesn’t want her dead. But as a throwback to the scene where Azuma and wire-chan were talking about their/Haru’s misfortune, I’d accept “world” alone. (There’s a difference in meaning here between “whole world” (people) and “world” (circumstances).)

   Well in previous episodes, it certainly did seem that many people in Haru’s world wanted her dead, so I didn’t think “whole world” was overreaching. It might have been a touch bombastic but, as it related to their world of dark machinations and assassinations, it seemed fine.

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   • This post is too long. If you feel the need to do it again, maybe you can separate your thoughts into an “I agree with these:” post, an “I disagree with these:” post, and an “I hate you D_S” post.

     Or you can just pick one of the three and ignore the others. I recommend the “I hate D_S” approach.

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     • Or you can shutup and stop complaining.
       I like this option the most.

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       • It’s the internet. That’s impossible.

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       • ar, pls :))

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   • Jesus. Yeah, maybe you can take Fuwaa’s approach and write something I’m liable to pay attention to.

     Based off your first fucking comment, the thing you need to realize about translations is that it doesn’t fucking matter what your dictionary says. All that matters is that you convey what needs to be conveyed in a natural manner. And your subs do not hit that fucking mark.

     I really do not have enough fucking time to teach anyone English from the ground-up. So when you say “A means B”, I’m going to respond with “But does B make sense in a natural English sentence?” And if you can’t respond in the affirmative, then you’re fucking wrong. If you aren’t qualified to speak in the affirmative, then stop wasting my fucking time and send someone from your group who actually speaks English here. And I hope for the sake of my sanity that it isn’t someone who worked on this release, because none of you fucking qualify.

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   • Note that I haven’t actually watched this show, so I’m only criticizing lines that give me enough context.
     While I can agree with you that D_S seems to be nitpicking, he certainly has a point: your script doesn’t flow ideally. And I’ll take that point further to say that you’re paying too much attention to the Japanese. Granted, this is a problem that I believe all translators have to some extent.
     Here are a few of my suggestions:

     >>all-time classics
     a real classic

     >>achievement test
     “Midterm” or just “test,” since we probably have enough context to judge that it’s an academic test. What I’m getting at here is that ※※テスト in Japanese doesn’t mean you have to write “** test.”

     >>Sacrificing someone and outliving them
     I would give this entire line an overhaul.

     “To have other people die for your sake… what’s it feel like?”
     -What’s it feel like to have someone die for your sake? (Split before “to” and add an ellipsis if the timing gets too awkward)
     The next part is where context matters.

     If the dead person was a friend: “You have to live the rest of your life without them.”

     If a random stranger died:
     “You’ll have to bear the weight of the person’s life forever.”
     -or-
     “You have to live knowing that you exchanged that person’s life for your own.”

     The lesson: Japanese has an extremely annoying tendency to be redundant and get away with it, so that’s one thing that you should be taking into account. There’s more to language than grammar rules, so sometimes you have to change/reduce the content of entire sentences just to get the big-picture message across.
     Also, fuck Japanese sentence order. Sentences structured like “To …” as a translation for 「するなんて…」make me cringe.

     >>clan
     The problem here is that the latter two sentences really make it sound like two clans. Context would help, but you could just say “a group of families” instead of “a clan.”

     >>the semicolon
     Replace that second comma. It looks weird as text, but it sounds fine when spoken. Nobody can pronounce a comma differently from a semicolon.

     >>left room
     I think the set is still doing something called “leaving room.”
     -Thanks to Haruki-san’s stage set…
     -we didn’t get crushed/hurt by the debris. (or “we managed to survive the collapse”)
     You could definitely flip sentence order for this.

     Your greatest weakness that I can judge from these lines is the redundancy that’s rampant in Japanese.
     All in all, I don’t blame you for these things, but try to hear the Japanese and then entirely forget the words. Let the message of the line turn into a nebulous idea, and take the original line to be nothing more than a suggestion for the structure and vocabulary. And yes, I’ve received a lot of flak using this method, but it’s what I think is right.

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     • I don’t think so. But then again, you’d probably have to watch the episode. I disagree with some of the edits as well, but I was the QC, not the editor, so didn’t have final say. The spacing and comma splice was an error I just missed. I know those belong there.
       It won’t be a real classic. All time classic is correct for emphasis (but redundant), otherwise, just classics would’ve worked.
       Instead of achievement, I’d probably put standardized, but achievement was more broad. It wasn’t a midterm. “leaving room” doesn’t even fit. The stage fell and there was room left over, and they were in the middle of it, so it left room for them, “saving them” at the end.
       I questioned the clan line initially as well, but later got convinced on that family thing.

       I know redundancy is the main problem, but I don’t think it makes the line any awkward or makes it read badly. In essays, of course it’s bad, but I wouldn’t say the same for regular talking. I follow grammatical rules, but I still think subtitles for translations should be written with proper grammar and what’s said more commonly. It gives more of a sense that that person is actually talking rather than writing an essay.

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10. “Oh dear, sorry for having wasted the great Dark_Sage’s time with my incoherent rambling. I shall take your advice to heart and endeavor to do a shittier job next time since you obviously have nothing intelligent to say which doesn’t involve the use of a certain expletive and insults upon a person’s intelligence.”

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    • It’s fruitless for me to have an in-depth discussion on the intricacies of English with someone who is not capable of understanding the language at a native level.

      If you want to send someone from your group who is capable of improving based on my commentary, throw them my way; I am quite willing to help people learn who are capable of learning. But if you think I’m going to waste an hour or two on someone who is incapable of understanding even basic English, then you’re more stupid than a human has any right to be.

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      • Well, the only thing you seem to be saying that you’re a native. That’s basically all you talk about when defending against anything we write.

        Kuma felt the need to post that because you don’t really give that many suggestions rather than calling people idiots, and he wanted to explain his standpoint on it to the people that blindly follow your reviews and when we want to say something in reply, it just turns into “I hate Dark_Sage” approach or something. Clearly, we’re just trying to say what we thought.
        And another thing is that you say you’re native and all, but you don’t seem to think of dialogue like one. In your first “error” where you cleaned up our script, you went all formal on it. You didn’t take into account that this is a mother-type figure who is talking to a child. When you want to win a child over, you don’t say statements like “can be” or “will be able to”. You might’ve cleaned up on a formal note, but it doesn’t fit what natives say, so no, it does not read better. (And I am trying to only talk with the English here without mentioning Japanese.) You want to convince the kid, so you use statements like “is a fun place” and “you WILL make friends”. Also, when speaking to a child, first person connects much more than saying “there will be”. Even if you’re talking about a pedophile who’d want a kid to come into his van, he’d say, “Come to my van. I’ve got candy.” A child will probably be less likely to come if he says, “There will be candy.”

        On another note, you try to point out contradictions such as arbitrarily putting “quickly” in that line. You forget that this is dialogue and “quickly” is used very often. If this were a formal essay, sure it’d be wrong. This is a question a non-native, who is learning English and trying to be formal might ask as well — why is it redundant?
        https://www.google.com/#q=%22quickly+get+out+of+here+before%22
        It’s used often and is what natives would say.
        Or in the other review “…leave alive”. These are phrases you hear in English movies which become common phrases in the native tongue. It’s not wrong to word things like that. You’re needlessly picking out lines that people say all the time and thinking this is bad English, which on the other hand is just normal dialogue.
        My problem is not with the actual mistakes, but rather the ones you make out to be, but is not.

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        • I just want to point out that things people say in real dialogue aren’t necessarily right. Food for thought.

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          • I dunno, what is “right”, really?

            If subtitles are supposed to represent natural speech, they don’t have to be grammatically correct 100% of the time. Over-adhering to the rules of what is “correct” can make the dialogue sound overly stiff compared to the characters portrayed.

            I’m just speaking generally here, though, because I don’t care enough to comment on the specific issues mentioned in this particular comment thread.

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            • That’s where I’m getting at. There is no “right”. Subtitles are indeed meant to reflect natural speech but “natural” speech is meant to follow proper grammar (theoretically at least).

              This then leads to the next question: Who is right? Kaitou or D_S?

              I don’t really care so I’ll leave it at that.

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            • No, no, you’re going about this all wrong. You say “subs are meant to reflect natural speech” but it’s not true because the skill of listening and the skill of reading are two different things. Just because you can make sense of a phrase while listening to it doesn’t mean you can garner the same sense from reading the phrase written.

              In effect, this is a cut above mere translation and comes under lofty editing ideals in that you’re effectively scriptwriting but without changing the meanings of any lines. You’re trying to make a line chime in the same way it does in the Japanese – so if that line, no matter how “natural” in English, doesn’t fit the situation it’s in, it has no place being there.

              Of course, to be good at it in the way D_S suggests, you basically have to become writers yourselves :D But it’s always good to have a goal that’s just out of reach, because you’re more likely to spend the time stretching towards it.

              The ultimate goal is to produce a sub that doesn’t read like it’s been translated at all. To do this, you have to go more middle of the road with your dialogue, because otherwise you lose the audience who won’t understand the line on first reading.

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        • I’d like to note that fanfiction and unpublished short stories, as well as fan translations from other languages, are not reliable for learning the English language.

          I’m going to add that, for a phrase that’s used “very often”, it only has 40 results. You get more results searching for “shut the fuck up” and “get the fuck out”.

          Though, to be fair, apparently those two are also song titles (like many commonly used phrases).

          If you want to know why it’s wrong, “quickly” and “before [X happens]” serve the same purpose in the sentence, so it is redundant to use both. The place you can use both is in an imperative statement with “quickly” as an interjection: “Quickly, get out of here before the others show up!” could work if it’s urgent and she’s commanding rather than suggesting.

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          • First of all, it yielded 1.6 million results. Secondly, that’s what I said. It’s redundant and not needed. It was put there for emphasis and people use it all the time. Following formal writing guidelines, yes, it is wrong. But in speech, it’s not. It’s just for emphasis. Non-native, who are learning textbook English will of course find it more weird, but I’d rather have sentence I hear around me. And I live in the U.S. and went to school here as well, so I’m pretty sure I hear it.

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            • Sometimes it’s okay to break the rules in informal or spoken word, but just because it’s being spoken doesn’t necessarily mean it’s okay to break the rules. In this particular case I don’t think it’s some horrible crime against English to have the line your way, but I do think it’d be better without it or as “Quickly, etc.”

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            • Kaitou_Kid, the number of results shown at the beginning of the search are different from the number of actual results if you actually look through the pages.

              I find it sad if you passed high school English with the sentence structure you’ve used here. Some mistakes here and there are expected, but you consistently mess up subject-verb agreement and you seem to be unaware of what present, past, and future tenses mean.

              After all, “I said that it’s redundant” doesn’t apply when responding to my post, considering your post admitting redundancy is below, not above. What I responded to was “why is it redundant?”

              At this point, I’m wondering whether your language skills are keeping you from understanding reality, or your poor grasp on reality is being reflected in your word choice.

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              • Whatever you say.

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          • It sounds (though I haven’t looked into it) that someone’s misusing the line. It can actually be used quite naturally in speech because the speaker breaks it down into separate clauses:

            “Let’s get out of here quickly, before the FEDs show up.”

            Though, as I said above in my previous ramble, while that’s perfectly natural English and in dialogue, it’d be fine – reading it, the comma halts the reader so it makes it a harder line to read in a sub. Thus, dispensation must be made for this (though actually, reading it myself, it seems fine like that :D)

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            • Yeah. I don’t think removing quickly solves anything except getting rid of the emphasis on the line. Adding comma works too. And as I said in some of the other post, I agree. There needs to be a line between the two. The point of native editors is that so they can differentiate extremely formal and what’s commonly said around them. I’m not only focusing on the “quickly” line either. I’m talking in general. For example, the first line D_S “cleaned” up loses all values in debate terms. You can’t convince with “can be”, you have to state as it is and that it “will” be like that.
              Having too many formal and stiff lines will also feel bad as a whole. It’s what localizations and idioms are for.

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              • Well, for that, I don’t really agree with D_S’s fixes either, but your lines don’t really work how you think they do.

                For instance, I’d probably change the “have” to “make” because there’s something not quite logical about it – “you’ll make friends” is used much more as an encouragement in English. I also don’t understand why you’d use “we” unless she’s part of the city (I don’t know the context) or a teacher at the school, and the school has candy and books. If it’s a mother trying to convince her child to go somewhere new, “we” just doesn’t work at all.

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                • Sure. That makes sense and I would change to that.

                  She lives in the city, so “we” I thought would make sense. Little Azuma probably doesn’t get that much sweets and stuff for her assassination training. For example, a person from Britain (hypothetically-not being stereotypical) can say, “Come to our country! We’ve got great tea!” The person is generalizing “we” for the whole country. It’s probably not an acceptable rule in formal writing, but it’s said commonly.

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                  • Yes, but the way you have the line currently, you don’t know automatically that she’s referring to the city because there’s intervening information about the school. Usually, when I think a line might be vague or ambiguous in this way, I add in the pertinent info. In this case, it would be “in the city” I’d add. Little change, big effect for the audience.

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              • Oh, and it does solve a lot, because you wouldn’t use “quickly” in that sentence formation except with a comma in natural English speech. There is a slight logic-fail aspect to the way it is now.

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        • I’m afraid I’ll have to side with DS. Unless you get a native editor, these complaints will persist, and for a reason. What people say and what they don’t say is somewhat arbitrary and certainly not taught in a textbook. Your usage of “quickly” in that sentence is awkward.

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          • It’s not really awkward as much as redundant. And I’m not saying I’ll be grammatically wrong just because it’s wrong in dialogue. You have to find a good line between extremely formal writing and what you hear in real life. And both Kuma and I are native English speakers (though I’m not white) so we hear these lines in real life. I’ve edited many shows as well, not just for this group (I did not edit this one), such as Hatsuyuki’s Free!.
            I prefer lines that fit situations in real life and phrase it similarly.

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11. Do you think you could compare the subtitles for the new season of Dragon Ball Kai?

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