This post was written by Dark_Sage. He is Dark_Sage.
Was I waiting for Cthuko’s release to write this, or was I just being lazy?
Cthuko where?
Cthuko may as well have dropped the show. They’re still 3 eps behind on both of their shows from last season, and now they’re 3 episodes behind on DanMachi. Even though I like the group (anyone who subs Yatterman can’t be a bad person), regardless of how excellent their subs could be, I can’t recommend you go with anything that keeps you from waiting 3+ weeks for the hype show of the season.
Visuals
Typesetting
TS for DanMachi is mostly irrelevant. Other than show/episode titles, the only other targets for translation are the few Engrish signs that appear. But have comparisons anyway.
Yeah, I shoulda probably messed around with the names in these images, but eh… worked well enough for the rest of the post. Maybe I’ll fix it in the next comparison~
Karaoke
OP
DameDesuYo
FFF
Winner: N/A. Both karas are soulless.
ED
DameDesuYo
FFF
Winner: N/A. Again. The fuck is with those colors? This shit’s more disgusting than your average tumblrina’s bathroom.
Dialogue
Main Problems
FFF
![[FFF] Dungeon ni Deai wo Motomeru no wa Machigatteiru Darou ka - 02 [004E4282].mkv_snapshot_08.40_[2015.04.25_19.34.40]](https://i0.wp.com/www.crymore.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/FFF-Dungeon-ni-Deai-wo-Motomeru-no-wa-Machigatteiru-Darou-ka-02-004E4282.mkv_snapshot_08.40_2015.04.25_19.34.40.jpg)
![[FFF] Dungeon ni Deai wo Motomeru no wa Machigatteiru Darou ka - 02 [004E4282].mkv_snapshot_08.42_[2015.04.25_19.34.46]](https://i0.wp.com/www.crymore.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/FFF-Dungeon-ni-Deai-wo-Motomeru-no-wa-Machigatteiru-Darou-ka-02-004E4282.mkv_snapshot_08.42_2015.04.25_19.34.46.jpg)
This is in the midst of a fight scene between Loki and Hestia. Who is “her”? What the fuck is up with the “star chips” reference (I get it cuz of my username, but…)? How does consoling– Holy me this is completely fucked. Scrap it and start anew, like your parents wish they did.
![[FFF] Dungeon ni Deai wo Motomeru no wa Machigatteiru Darou ka - 02 [004E4282].mkv_snapshot_07.32_[2015.04.25_18.48.45]](https://i0.wp.com/www.crymore.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/FFF-Dungeon-ni-Deai-wo-Motomeru-no-wa-Machigatteiru-Darou-ka-02-004E4282.mkv_snapshot_07.32_2015.04.25_18.48.45.jpg)
![[FFF] Dungeon ni Deai wo Motomeru no wa Machigatteiru Darou ka - 02 [004E4282].mkv_snapshot_16.01_[2015.04.25_18.49.08]](https://i0.wp.com/www.crymore.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/FFF-Dungeon-ni-Deai-wo-Motomeru-no-wa-Machigatteiru-Darou-ka-02-004E4282.mkv_snapshot_16.01_2015.04.25_18.49.08.jpg)
FFF is so up their own ass with some of their dialogue, they’ve started reeking of their dog’s cock. QC exists for a reason, you dumbfucks.
DDY
Don’t worry; we have an entire post to go for these.
Phrasing
While DDY’s dialogue is meandering, FFF gets right to the point. Don’t be fooled by the “right now” and think the lines are equivalent.
Remember how your English teacher told you the passive voice sucks? Well she was a fucking idiot, but her advice was sound in this instance. DDY’s dialogue drags the show down comparatively. This is also why the Spanish language sucks.
It’s difficult to get conversations into an easily viewable format, so this’ll be the only example. As you can see, the flow is far superior in FFF’s when compared to the other options. This is a common theme throughout the episode.
Now, it’s not like every line that FFF has is superior to the competition — that’s… actually never the case with subtitles — but the sheer amount of match-ups they win on account of more clever, natural dialogue makes it difficult for me to recommend the other two releases.
Characaterization
Always a contentious issue, I’ll just leave the cat puns here.
You can decently infer how each of the releases will handle other puns in the series.
Characterization/Logic
In no way could “sly move” make any sense in this scenario. Hestia’s all “oh Bell-kun-chan y u keeping all that sweet boy pussy to yourself? u being selfish” — he’s not making a “sly move” here, because that would imply he’s trying to fuck her. Which he’s clearly too beta to even contemplate.
Why the fuck would you think cutting out the “family” part is okay when it’s THE FUCKING POINT OF THE EPISODE GOOD JESUS. DDY’s decision to go with a generic “anyone else” here completely misses the significance of “family” and what it means for Hestia and Bell’s relationship. “You’re not just familia, you’re family.” This isn’t fucking college-level writing here.
Considering Bell’s referencing his grandfather in this scene, DDY’s decision is even more incomprehensibly stupid. And for a Crunchyroll edit? Jesus, DDY, the goodwill you earned from episode 1’s cutesy effects can only go so far.
I did like episode 1 though…
Again, DDY takes the opportunity to say something of meaning and edits everything of value away. What could fucking prompt this decision? If you hate the show so much, don’t work on it. And if you’re too stupid to understand how you fucked up here, maybe you shouldn’t be in the scene in the first place.
All in all
FFF’s dialogue is the most inventive and entertaining, and it stays true to the spirit of the show. I can say with confidence that the dialogue in FFF’s release enhances the DanMachi experience the breast.
tl;dr:
FFF > DDY
DanMachi is definitely hype, so I recommend you watch with HorribleSubs/Crunchyroll and archive/rewatch with FFF. But if you’re not interested in livetweeting mundane, unoriginal opinions to an audience that never existed in the first place, you can just skip straight to FFF.
DDY still shit.
So what else is new?
As the QC for DanMachi for Cthuko, I have not heard a single word about the show since episode 1 was released. Which is fine with me, by the way. My job means I can’t keep up with speedsubbing anymore. But it is getting a bit ridiculous at this point.
This review format turned out pretty well.
I preferred DDY’s use of nya, otherwise I agree, even on the same line. FFF was a lot better. As for that line on DDY’s translation, it was a request not the demand sounding crap they made it sound like.
I hope you liked this format D_S, I think it works well and is so much easier for us to compare. Then again I am bias…
What are you doing, DDY?
Being DDY. What’s new.
AW SNAP
They’re like the new Chihiro except worse somehow.
>QC exists for a reason, you dumbfucks.
Unfortunately, there isn’t much a QCer can do about changes/mistakes made to the script after he makes his pass, assuming it isn’t a direct apply.
The ones shown here appear to be a copy-and-paste fail.
QC should be last in line, no changes after. That is their issue if they did as you say.
In cases where an editor has asked a QC to either annotate a pad or provide a report, it is impossible for there to be “no changes after,” since someone besides the QC must make the necessary corrections to the script. This is when additional errors may be (and on this occasion was) introduced.
What one might think of as obvious solutions—e.g., letting the QC make changes directly to the script, having another QC round (perhaps reduced in scope)—runs headlong into a second set of wide-ranging issues that might be summarized as the problem of human nature…
From your own description; they did not have a QC for all intents and purposes, they just had an editor with help.
Again, like I said before, QC last in line, so if the QC says changes need to be made, he/she checks the edits and out the door the script goes to timer or encoder/muxer, which ever order the group works in.
Hopefully timer so the typesetting still works with any changes. I time and QC at the same time for personal projects for that reason.
>they just had an editor with help.
This assumes that the “someone besides the QC” has to be an editor and not the TL, TLC, or even another QC. But I digress.
>if the QC says changes need to be made, he/she checks the edits and out the door the script goes
While that certainly would make my job a lot simpler (a lot less typing for sure), it doesn’t account for situations where the QC is simply wrong. What appears to be an obvious error in grammar, punctuation, or choice of words might actually be perfectly acceptable. And of course, the QC may inadvertently typo or have a brainfart while making his changes.
The only “logical” solution—requiring that all QCs be fluent in both English and Japanese, as well as be incapable of making a mistake—is hardly a practical one, particularly for a group that releases a large number of shows. Rather, a fresh pair of somewhat competent eyes is better than nothing at all.
Personally, I’m okay with or without direct apply. If whoever else is making the changes chooses to disregard what I’ve written, then it’s on them; I’ve done what’s been asked of me. If just one of my changes is applied, the quality of the script will have been improved. At the end of the day, that’s what matters.
The rest, as they say, will be sorted out in batch.
The QC’s job should only be to fix or alert others to basic mistakes, right? Like grammatical errors or typos, or if typesetting/encoding is fucked? Surely, when it comes to the script, the QC should be trusted to be able to fix basic errors without the editor needing to re-visit the script. That seems like a waste of time.
>the QC may inadvertently typo or have a brainfart while making his changes.
If this is frequently happening, I’d have to wonder why the fuck the person doing that is QCing in the first place. If you were an editor, and you sent the script off so that potential errors could be fixed, and it wound up with additional errors added instead, wouldn’t you be pretty pissed that the QC did the exact opposite of what their role is supposed to be?
Which is also why groups employ QCers who, on average, fix more than they break.
As thecowgoesmoo has been trying to explain, no human being is perfect and errors will creep in. He’s not saying that QCers make mistakes frequently. He’s saying that they will make mistakes sometimes, and in those cases running the changes by the editor (or project leader or whoever) before applying them would help to prevent adding errors.
Besides, QCers can also make subjective suggestions (e.g. “this line could be better worded this way”), not just objective ones (e.g. “this word is misspelled” or “this line is mistimed”), and this is one place where having the translator or editor review the suggestion would be ideal.
>Besides, QCers can also make subjective suggestions (e.g. “this line could be better worded this way”)
So the QC is essentially serving as a secondary editor in that case? That’s probably where all the errors creep in. You have QCers doing a second editing pass on the script, so then you need to QC the QCers.
This could potentially also be an argument for direct apply vs. QC reports. I’m a fan of direct apply, because then, I know the fixes are going to be made. Of course, I’ve done both, and I’ve trusted the editor to go back and make the changes the report suggests. It does slow the process down, however. And as this conversation mentioned, it causes copy/paste issues.
I never implied that, and it also happens that you’re wrong.
Errors creep in when the QCer goes in to fix a mistimed line in the script and accidentally selects an adjacent line along with the mistimed line, or when they add a comma or hyphen to a line that needs it, but between the wrong words, etc.
It’s rare that QCers add mistakes while making major changes because they’re not supposed to be making the major changes themselves in the first place. It’s also not commonplace for a QCer to double as a secondary editor; off the top of my head there are only two or three groups that do this. I mentioned this only because you seem to think fansubbing has clearly delineated roles where no one ever does anything outside of what they’re assigned.
Only bad QCs will regularly make those kinds of mistakes when fixing others. No-one’s perfect and shit can happen, though.
I have a preference of direct apply as a QC because QCs are (usually) a lot more careful when they’re making changes anywhere in the script. I’ll re-read most changes 2 to 3 times to confirm that I’ve not made a mistake myself, for example.
One thing I do agree with from this whole discussion though, is that a capable QC should be the last hands on the script. I’ve employed this particular mindset in my own projects for a long time and it’s minimised mistakes from the stuff I’ve released massively.
>The QC’s job should only be to fix or alert others to basic mistakes, right? Like grammatical errors or typos, or if typesetting/encoding is fucked?
Should it be? If that’s all you need a QC for, half of the job could practically be handled by extracting the dialog and running it through spellcheck et al. and a few scripts. Even MS Word’s grammar check (if properly set up) could probably do a half decent job. It would certainly improve upon at least some of the releases DS has torn apart on Crymore.
Meanwhile, the amount of typesetting done these days would only necessitate spot checks, which the editor can do. And if the encoder isn’t sleeping on the job, by the time the…timer gets involved in the script you can press gang him into checking the premux.
What is a “basic error”, anyway? Who do you turn to to fix a scrambled idiom? Who will spot the misplaced Commonwealthism (and I don’t mean the ‘u’s) in an AmE release, or wordplay that simply doesn’t work?
Going further afield:
• Is overuse of ‘just’ and ‘really’ or a tendency to begin sentences with ‘so’ and ‘then’ something you cross your fingers on and hope the editor will self-correct?
• What if in episode four a certain individual’s characterization changes all of a sudden? Should the QC alert someone to this inconsistency, or should he assume that it was a deliberate choice and move on?
• When the editor comes up with a sentence that is technically correct in all aspects but is something that a human would never actually say, is that a basic error?
• etc.
There are many, many places where dialog can go wrong. If all you’re asking out of your QC is something that a precocious seven year old armed with a style guide could handle… why bother to have a QC at all?
>DDY
>letting the QC make changes directly to the script
>Black Shads
heh.
Oh yeah, I wouldn’t let a DDY QC make direct changes.
One season there trying to train their QCs to work properly (and stop trying to edit INSTEAD OF looking for mistakes) resulted in fuck all.
I don’t imagine things have changed much unless all of the current QCs are replacements.
>One season there trying to train their QCs to work properly
More or less
>I don’t imagine things have changed much unless all of the current QCs are replacements.
Ayyyy
>there trying
:<
Uh, not sure what you’re getting at.
Do you think that I was saying “they’re trying”? You’d be totally wrong if so.
‘They tried’ came to mind first, but that works too.
DDY is water under the bridge; I’ll always respect Shin and benga ;) for what they have accomplished.
Back to Dota 2.
Fucking magic mangoes…
Fyurie is saying one season he was there trying…
I see, that was after my time. Why didn’t that go well?
Long story.
Mostly bad scripts and QCs that decided that arguing useless dialogue flow points was worth more than pointing out major typographical and consistency mistakes.
QCs that pretend they’re editors, basically.
I don’t mean to draw, how should I say, significance(?) to myself, but the QC pretending to be an editor theme is something I feel I left behind there. Sorry if I am even a bit at fault.
Do you feel it’s a common theme with new groups, or do you see it elsewhere?
Hmm… this is relevant to my interests.
What about normally-editors who are designated as QC for a project?
I think it’s more of a theme with new QCs than with new groups.
It’s certainly not exclusive to DDY, and it might not even be a problem for them these days. I can’t comment on that count though because I haven’t watched a DDY release since Trinity Seven.
The problem (assuming, like I said, that it isn’t already solved) is that no-one was fixing it and because of the QCs focusing on the wrong thing, real errors make it through in troves.
Groups need to put more emphasis on what matters for QCs. It’s not just about finding the best way to word a line, that’s the editor’s job.
What a QC should be doing is looking for the various kinds of straight fuck-ups that can slip in. Typos, mistimes, bad TS font choices, encoding glitches, etc.
New QCs need to be given this information and be pressed on it properly, and groups hiring novice QCs should make sure those QCs are focusing on the right things.
Best way to do this is to follow up any novice QC report/direct apply (with diffs) with an experienced QC pass and find out what they’re focusing on. If it’s all wording changes, they’re either on the wrong “career path”, or doing their job badly.
TL;DR: Proper training is important or you’ll never get yourself any good QCs.
That sounds more than reasonable, keeps everyone’s job simple.
In my defense, there was not a legitimate editor way back XD
Thanks based Fyurie-sensei!
Did you spell all that out for them while you were there?
Apparently not in such fine detail as it never really stuck, but that’s on me, I guess.
Hopefully some new QCer will get a chance to read that post, at least.
Pretty much what QQwerty said.
I guess I should stop condensing my sentences else these things happen.
Crystal clear!
Don’t mind it, I’m definitely to blame. I’m studying for a certain scientifically proven to not be racially biased/unfair standardized test and shit’s been sticking out like a sore thumb. T_T
[Cthuko] Dungeon ni Deai o Motomeru no wa Machigatteiru Darou ka – 02 [720p H264 AAC][ECC132BD].mkv
[Cthuko] Dungeon ni Deai o Motomeru no wa Machigatteiru Darou ka – 03 [720p H264 AAC][56BBB836].mkv
“Cthuko may as well have dropped the show.” xD
Cthuko guys who working on this show just got “whipped” with that statement and are on fire right now LOL
>The rate you’re growing at is incredible.
>Remember how your English teacher told you the passive voice sucks? Well she was a fucking idiot, but her advice was sound in this instance.
“You’re growing at an incredible rate” is definitely better, but in the interests of maintaining maximal smugness, you’ll want to remember that that’s not passive voice. Passive’d be like “You are being grown at an incredible rate” and that’s Hadena-tier.
Please add Cthuko and Viewster. I want to know which subs are the best.
Viewster is a hardsubbed, 480p MP4 streamrip. Not exactly the kind of thing that lends itself well to comparisons, nor would I ever, ever recommend it.
Cthuko… like I brought up in the opening bit, I can’t recommend a group with their track record, especially considering they hadn’t released for three weeks when I posted this. I understand the desire to look for the most archivable subs, but I don’t have an infinite amount of time to review, so making a new post under the assumption Cthuko can keep their shit together for a full season… that seems like a bad time investment on my part.
Viewster is good for at least one awesome thing. (Cue tsuntsuning.)
“Awesome” is a bold statement. I struggle to find the motivation to even apply an adjective to skiddiks releases.
Tsun, tsun.
We can make ‘meme’ an adjective now just for him.
That is not why it sucks, that is one of the many reasons why it is better -_-‘
This is like comparing dogshit to catshit
Both are bad but cat puts it underground usually.
FFF is going downhill very fast.