This post was written by Dark_Sage. He is Dark_Sage.
Wanted to review the GJM-DDY release, but turns out it’s just another #fansubbing2016 re-encode. So Crunchyroll it is instead.
You’re killing me, guys. ;_;
Suppose we’ll just make this one an editing lesson rather than a QC report. I’ll be flip flapping between what’s good and what’s bad, though this is Crymore, so expect the only good to be in my fixes.
I’ll try to include commentary regarding the GJM-DDY release as well. But due to site standards implemented several years ago, I do not consider it a true fansub, and thus it is disqualified from normal coverage. Sad days indeed.
Not a lot to work with here, which is fine. Though I suppose it doesn’t give a lot of room for alternate options to present a strong case of their own here.
Other.
This show is 2good.
Script Review
Spoiler for
Main Script.
Note that as I go through this, I have the benefit of two scripts to come to my editing conclusions. Well, actually, it’s more like 1.1 scripts, so maybe this disclaimer wasn’t necessary at all.
Let’s talk context, let’s talk characterization.
When the fuck do you normally use “Nah”? Dismissively, right? It’s not polite. This girl’s so eager to please, she’d probably go down on her grandma if grams gave even the slightest crotch nod, so what’s going on here?
You think as the fucking calm music in the background plays, as her too-kindly grandma smiles at her, that she’s gonna roll her dialogue like she’s hanging with her cunnilingus crew? No. And that’s the fix.
Note: This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release.
This girl’s going for the yankee vibe. As a wannabe punk, her language dispenses with standard formalities and gets straight to the point.
This kind of wandering dialogue really doesn’t suit the kinda girl for whom smoking cigarettes and sucking off baseball players behind the gym will be the highlight of her existence before she settles into her final form as either a purposeless housewife or a heroin-addicted streetwalker.
Note: GJM-DDY modified these specific lines accordingly and without slipping on any slopes. A number of her other lines were unedited from the standard Crunchyroll translation set, however.
Ending punctuation shouldn’t be an afterthought. This line needs an exclamation mark like these girls need a Dark_Sage.
Note: GJM-DDY fixed this.
More like if their feelings are in sync.
Note: GJM-DDY got it mostly right, but they went with “in tune” rather than “in sync”. Yes, there’s a difference.
Strong is a more appropriate word to use.
Note: GJM-DDY used “strong” as well.
Last bit on her characterization. Would rather go with “Seriously, what’s your deal?”
Note: GJM-DDY had “Seriously, what’s your problem?”
With quotes, ya need to be careful, cuz they may be coming from legit material. So before editing anything, you’ll want to do your research.
According to Google Books, the TL did.
The passage in question.
Note: This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release. All is right in the world.
This is straight awkward, and it only qualifies as a sentence if you jump through several mental hoops. Any fix works so long as you get Cocona questioning Papika’s sudden “status” as a transfer student.
Note: GJM-DDY went with a rewrite approach: “What’s with this “transfer student” stuff?”
Cocona’s trying to list a number of qualities which make Papika in danger of making a fatal mistake. Being “wild” and “pushy” only loosely fits that.
Note: This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release.
Nice grammar, Crunchy-san.
Note: GJM-DDY changed this, but only laterally. FYI GJM-DDY, “got killed” implies a sense of responsibility for the death. If Papika died due to the elements, for example, your line wouldn’t work.
More like “Those ears…”
If she was referring to “Your ears…”, she’d be pointing lower, since they still exist. Additionally, the second line as depicted doesn’t make any sense, because it literally reads as “You’ve got my ears, too.”
Note: This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release.
Not “No!”, it’s more like “Oh no!” or “No way!”
Her disbelief/rejection needs to be stronger. The camerawork isn’t exactly subtle about it.
Note: This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release.
If you were inclined to memesub, “I’ve got fur coming out of my everywhere.”
Note: This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release. (A no-memes rewrite would be fine too.)
N-Not quite. A “N-No thanks!” is the more appropriate tsundere reaction in this scene.
Note: This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release.
She definitely caused a mess in episode 1, but a disaster? There’s only so much bad writing you can write off as exaggeration.
Note: This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release.
Rabbits like to chew on tons of things, not just “hard” shit. Specificity only introduces awkwardness here. Go with “That looks good…” instead.
To whichever company handles the dub: if this line doesn’t end up as “That looks nommy…” I am going to be pissed.
Note: This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release.
What the fuck?
Note: GJM-DDY went full retard with “I feel kinda buzzy now.”//”What is this about ‘buzzy’?” So much for careful consideration, huh, Fyurie?
She can’t reply with that kind of affirmative when the basic plot of the fucking show is that Papika can’t travel to la la land without a fucking partner.
Note: This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release.
???
Note: GJM-DDY went with “What are these fragments?” Still a say-nothing sentence, though.
Results
Watchability: Watchable.
Overall grade: Pass.
Crunchyroll’s script, while being admittedly good, is far from the perfection some believe it to be. Tons of lines not highlighted here allow for an editor’s personality to shine through (within reason) — I cannot believe the oft-repeated line of incompetents that effort is too hard.
I will personally be archiving GJM-DDY for Flip Flappers, but I refuse to call their re-encodes a fansub. That it took a joint to cobble together a 30-minute edit like this hurts my soul.
But yeah, Crunchyroll review, so… Pass. Trust that you aren’t missing on much at all if you go the official route for FliFla.
85 thoughts on “Officialsubs Review: [Crunchyroll] Flip Flappers (Episode 02)”
I’m not even gonna waste my breath on the amount of bullshit you’re trying to pull in that closing statement.
You should reconsider those “fakesub” standards if you want to continue doing this in the current scene. This isn’t the same scene you left two or so years ago.
No. If the script is decent or flawless, you still have to change every line. That’s a fansubbing rule!
(Insert everything except translation) isn’t an important part of the fansub process anyway.
Joking aside, D_S rule is dumb. People that watch fansubs are probably more into visual quality (typeset, encode). Just saying. It’s dumb to not include them.
I provided several examples of lines that could use improvement. Either you didn’t read the post, or you couldn’t comprehend it, but neither of those two failings is on me.
Regarding fansubs, there is a not-insignificant “cost” associated with choosing a fanmade release over an official one. If your release’s value proposition is weak, then you should not be surprised when people choose not to make the switch.
In my analysis of GJM-DDY’s offering, I found the value proposition to be quite weak. There were no self-evident errors in the original encode or timing your average viewer would pick out as needing to be fixed, there is very little to typeset and all of it was already done in the officialsubs, the lines are essentially unchanged between the two releases meaning there are no notable script differences to point to as experience changing, and the distribution options don’t even match those of fansubs from several years ago. What, is karaoke the silver bullet? Cuz last I checked, only I cared about that shit.
So what, pray tell, is this release offering that makes it so fucking good when it can’t even convince *me* it provides any notably different experience from a fucking Crunchyroll stream? Cuz I think my boy moron just hit the nail on the head as to why you claim to like it so much.
We’ve had this argument several times and I think both of us have been rather firm in our positions. Just because I like you doesn’t mean I’m gonna treat your subs any differently from other groups’.
The video quality looks much better than Crunchyroll. Maybe they used a different source (checked episode 3)? That’s enough for me to watch them, so I don’t have to suffer with the overload of banding (thx CR).
I mean, if it can’t convince you it’s notably different from CR, why are you waiting for it? I don’t think anyone’s claiming that this release is “saving” the show from CR or anything, so does it really matter as long as the final product does offer improvements in the form of encoding, TS, kfx, etc.?
Fair enough, I didn’t quite explain that at the end there. Updated terminology from “going with” to “archiving”.
tl;dr: If I want to watch the show and Crunchyroll’s got an episode out but GJM-DDY doesn’t, I won’t hesitate to go for the Crunchysubs. This shit’s more archive material and if I ever get a hankering for the karaoke, I can just go back to an earlier downloaded episode.
Also, when Fyurie isn’t PMSing, I generally like the guy, and the staff I’m familiar with are decent people, so I feel comfortable adding this release to my collection. I’ve done the same for releases that I acknowledged were worse than the alternatives — for example, [Interrobang]/[IB] usually had the worst version of any given show, but I got along well with the dudes there, so their shit ended up being what I archived.
How is proper timing, typesetting, fixing issues with a script that doesn’t need rewritten, a better encode, and the odd TL error fixed /not/ a fansub by any standards?
“Don’t fix what ain’t broke is a good concept. Another good concept: don’t re-release someone else’s effort and brand it as your own original work if you haven’t so much as touched it.”
That’s at best just an argument for crediting the editor as a QC in this case. The typesetting, encode, karaoke, those are all original efforts. Minor script problems are still fixed. Is it so different that it’s worth waiting for over CR? That depends on your preferences, but there’s enough work put into the other categories that calling it “just a rebrand” isn’t at all being fair.
Original TL is not a requirement for fansubbing. If it was, no BD group would be considered a fansub group, and a number of releases from FFF, Commie, Hiryuu, DDY, Asenshi, Chihiro, and nearly every other group in existence wouldn’t be fansubs. You’re not the arbiter of what is and isn’t fansubbing. And to that end, I disagree with how D_S claims GJM-DDY’s release isn’t a fansub, even though I completely agree with his decision to not review it.
So, did you just imply that the only people who can be called fansubbers are TLs, and that anyone who does any other task in the process of producing subtitles isn’t a fansubber? Because that’d be really retarded, so I hope that’s not what you’re saying.
Sure, they’re faneditors. That’s what I said. You can’t fansub without translator. Prove me wrong.
==
So, did you just imply that few changes made to official script make you a fansubber? Because that’d be really retarded, so I hope that’s not what you’re saying.
I consider QCs fansubbers, even when they’re working on scripts that are already rather polished. If you work on a project where you are adding subtitles to anime, you are subbing. If you are doing that out of love for the medium without monetary compensation, that’s fansubbing. Translating things yourself is an option, but is not required if another translation is available. That also makes whether nor not your work is necessary a question, but that doesn’t change that you are working on subtitles, which is the thing that makes it fansubbing.
We as fansubbers don’t really have to “prove you wrong.” As the people who do the work, we get to define what is and is not fansubbing.
Watching anime is your hobby, subbing it is ours. Until you breach that gap and try doing all the parts of subbing (in competition with simulcasts) yourself, you don’t really get much of a say in what is fansubbing and what isn’t.
Dark_Sage has a tenuous claim to that as he is an ex-fansubber, but I believe he had basically left the scene before simulcasts became grossly available. I could be wrong about that, though.
HeavenlyArmed’s definition is pretty fair. Do you have any better definition for a fansub?
I checked in right around ’08 and checked out somewhere between 2011 and 2012. Fansubs still had a fighting chance when I dropped from that side of the scene.
Now, just because “I have a say” doesn’t mean I believe my viewpoint is the only right one. I talk in absolutes and with strong language, but that’s how I talk about everything. Everyone’s got their own thoughts on the matter, and mine are colored heavily by experiences that very few share. If the scene wants to shift goalposts, that’s fine, but I do not feel obliged to shift mine in turn.
In essence, I do not see anything unhealthy with agreeing to disagree. Taking it personally, though? Probably not for the best.
I just had a problem with Lmao’s attitude on it, honestly.
As for your assessment of GJM-DDY’s Flip-Flappers, it’s fair to say that the value added may not be significant enough for you to wait, but that’s a personal belief (as you said in comments). I realize I stand next to no chance of changing your opinion, but let’s put the compare and number of script changes into perspective with another one of DDY’s shows this season: WWW. Working!!.
Show: Flip Flappers 02
Diffcheck: https://www.diffchecker.com/uHzNVI3F (CR left, GJM-DDY right)
Total Changes: 83
Word count: 1050
Ratio (changes/words): .079
Longest sentence:
79 characters, 12 words: Retrieving the fragments scattered there is your job for the foreseeable future
Average Sentence Length (word) 3.2
Short Words (=7 characters): 118
Most common words:
1. cocona 38 (3.6%)
2. papika 16 (1.5%)
3. go 14 (1.3%)
4. i’m 13 (1.2%)
5. uexküll 13 (1.2%)
Show: WWW. Working!! 02
Diffcheck: https://www.diffchecker.com/HxJf4Xpo (CR left, DDY right)
Total changes: 372
Word count: 2443
Ratio (changes/words): .152
Longest sentence:
99 characters, 16 words: Schoolwork is indispensable in every student’s search for a career that is suited to their talents,
Average Sentence Length (word) 5.3
Short Words (=7 characters): 278
Most common words:
1. me 34 (1.4%)
2. her 21 (0.9%)
3. don’t 17 (0.7%)
4. it’s 17 (0.7%)
5. i’m 16 (0.7%)
Flip-Flappers is not a dialogue heavy show and is almost entirely translationally correct (because Sentai is somewhat competent translation-wise and has been pretty consistently). As you can see, it’s primarily 1-3 word sentences and dominated by the characters yelling each other’s names. What edits could be made to such short lines? The only way I can think of would be to make lines incorrect, as you suggested with the “hard” line. What would you suggest we do with lines that the show hasn’t explained yet, like the “fragments” one? Dropping in any other interpretations for those lines than what the TLC provided for that line would be adding translation errors.
Compare that to http://WWW.Working !! which is a dialogue heavy show and translated by Aniplex. Almost every line needs to be rewritten because almost every line is incorrect and horribly written. The level of attention that needs to be given to the script is astronomically higher than to Flip-Flappers and yet the edit ratio is only just under two times FF’s. That’s pretty impressive, if you ask me.
Honestly, your diff-check is misleading — cherry-picked, even. It shows one of the sections with the fewest changes. Earlier sections have more changes, but they wouldn’t have supported your claim of “fake-subs” as well. That said, even if you had been more fair with your screenshot, it still would have appeared slim… because there just isn’t much to change in the show and there’s no way around that. Many of your criticisms of Crunchyroll’s script are nitpicks, not the blantant errors that we see from other licensors and it shows in the script. Even if there is room for an “editor’s personality to shine through,” which there really isn’t much of, you mocked the cases where the editor did take those liberties.
Calling the GJM-DDY release a “fake-sub” is to discredit the amount of effort that was put into it. That term, when you coined it, was for essentially HorribleSubs remuxes. This is not even close to a remux; it’s just a show with very little to translate, much less correct.
Note: while I am the leader of one of these groups, I really had nothing to do with the work done on it. I can still appreciate the effort that went into it and find it kind of insulting, as Fyurie did, that you—an ex-fansubber—would try to perpetuate the joke that the number of edits equates to the quality.
I mean, it’s more like you stand next to no chance of changing my opinion.
I’m not discrediting the amount of effort that went into this release; instead, I’m highlighting it. Look, you know damn well how much time it actually takes to execute every one of the tasks you highlighted. How long do the *amazing* timing fixes actually take? How about the minimal edits? The application of the already-created kfx? The fucking encode? 2-and-a-half days? Really?
Can you honestly fucking sit there and say you poured your best effort into this and could not have put a goddamn ounce more soul into it in the time it took to slap your meaningless joint tag there? And I use the term “you” very loosely, because apparently you don’t believe the buck stops at leadership.
Come on, begna, you’re a better person than this. Or at least, you once were.
Actually, I’m DDY’s “leader” on this project and I’m 110% satisfied with what we’re putting out. DDY’s hierarchy doesn’t function how you think it does, so patronizing begna is meaningless when he has no hands on the script.
>How long do the *amazing* timing fixes actually take?
Timing obviously takes an hour to a few hours, depending on how fast the timer is (CR scripts take about two hours at most for me) and anyone who knows the basics of timing can tell that CR, while the most competent of simulcasts, still throws basic timing rules out the window all the time. Maybe individual lines don’t matter, but good timing gives you an overall better impression of the show.
But I shouldn’t need to tell you this, because you’re an ex-fansubber.
>How about the minimal edits?
If you look at that diffchecker, there was quite a bit of discussion over lines, and that’s just what was on the pad. There was more on IRC. The lines that matter were certainly looked at and the meaningless lines that we would’ve wasted time on if we tried to edit weren’t. I’d love to see someone edit those meaningless 1-3 word sentences into something amazing, because I highly doubt that’s possible. And that’s probably over half the script.
But I shouldn’t need to tell you this, because you seem to already understand that CR’s script is pretty good.
>The application of the already-created kfx?
Logarithm literally spent over a week on the kfx, and like begna said, wrote an entirely new library for it. In fact, EP2 was delayed very slightly FOR the kfx.
You ever written an entire library just to process audio?
>The fucking encode?
A good encode can take up to eight hours to encode or more. I’ve seen bluray encodes take over 60, and I heard a certain TV encode this season took over 50. And hell, for ep3 we even had a v2 for the encode. That’s the one we released with, and the results are good: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/188752/picture:0
The difference here is significant. But I shouldn’t need to tell you this, because you have eyes.
You didn’t mention typesetting at all. Did you look at this? http://i.imgur.com/dH8A7hl.jpg
This kind of stuff can take hours or more, and goes to show just how much our TSer cares about attention-to-detail. Hell, he masked all the robots faces and put the japanese characters back on them with a smaller font size just so he could fit the English onto them. That’s a lot of effort when he could’ve just forced them inbetween the kanji.
But I shouldn’t need to tell you this, because you include a TS section in your reviews, even if you only give one sentences critiques at the very end.
We’re sorry for not rushing our releases out and instead holding on to them until we’re completely satisfied with our work. We’re not trying to change your opinion, and we don’t give a shit that you didn’t review us, but we’re telling you that we sure as hell put effort into this and it’s sure as hell a better product than CR. Because this…
>I will personally be archiving GJM-DDY for Flip Flappers, but I refuse to call their re-encodes a fansub. That it took a joint to cobble together a 30-minute edit like this hurts my soul.
…is simply bull. Regardless of how you want to define a “fansub”, this certainly isn’t a “re-encode” nor a “fakesub”. Fansubs aren’t here to compete with simulcasts for speed when the simulcast is already good, we’re here to make a more enticing product as well as an archivable one. You seem to recognize that, but what you don’t recognize is that forcing in edits where they don’t belong and potentially making a script worse because of it would only degrade the final product. Worth adding that we’ve always credited the simulcasters for their translations, and we’re not claiming the base script as our own.
Last but not least I’ll bring up the fact (again) that you seem to have no idea of how a joint works. This is using staff from both groups to fill up positions. We don’t have five typesettings, editors, and timers on the project, like you seem to be indirectly suggesting. Neither group had enough staff to do the show themselves.
If you seriously think that our release is as dismissible as a literal re-encode, then you’re no better than the people who download cam rips from movie theaters, because you must be shutting off your eyes and ears just to “enjoy” whatever you’re watching. We’re not here to fix the things that aren’t broken, but we are here to fix everything else that is.
I didn’t really write a whole new library, most of the work was done by Youka in writing the frequency analyzer part of Yutils, it took me a week to write a few functions to use it effectively and a few more to translate that to transform tags because I have other things to do with my life
Thanks for this, I didn’t bother to wait for GJM-DDY’s slow release anyway.
Fighting over the definiton of one word (“fansub”) instead of considering the “This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release”-thing, i.e. considering the content of this review, is what politicians or SJWs do. Why care this much about “fan-” or “fakesub”, although there are multiple points regarding the editing of this show to talk – or at least think – about? It’s always as if fanfakesubbing as a whole is in question… whereas in this case, only the editing is in question.
Except there’s nothing to talk about there. Yes, there are improvements that could be made that GJM-DDY didn’t make, and improvements that could be made that they did make. That’s not disputable. No one is upset over the idea that the GJM-DDY release isn’t perfect, they’re upset that it’s being labelled as “not a fansub”, because they feel that label discredits the work that goes into the parts besides the editing.
Only those are upset who didn’t read the review. Everybody else knows why the GJM-DDY-release is labelled as fakesub (and most of them know the criteria for a long time). I too think this label is not appropriate, but I also know what it means in this case. So only because the word “fakesub” is strong, everybody snaps? Although they know it only affects the absence of editing – of which you think (if I understand correctly), there is nothing to talk about. I don’t know the latter, but Dark_Sage obviously thinks there is something missing, i.e. to talk about. So prove him wrong (not you personally, but generally). I think this fakesub-“discussion” has gone out of proportion for a long enough time.
Hypothetical situation: you devote 25+ hours per week, essentially a part-time job, to your hobby for the pleasure of other people. Someone with a website and some salty readers comes along, telling everyone that your efforts are “fake” and not worth watching.
I think you would be kind of upset too, especially when it boils down to “he said-she said” on how much effort is involved. Non-fansubbers simply can’t understand and appreciate the effort that does go into releases.
>So prove him wrong (not you personally, but generally).
See my comments above where I tried to do just that: to point out that there’s just nothing much to edit in this show and that the compare he linked is misleading. I got personal attacks in return. Apparently, it’s not to be talked about and we’re just supposed to accept the judgment handed down.
If you look at “fakesub” reviews in the past, you see a pretty stark difference. Whereas before his diff-checks sought to show all the differences (as few as they were), in this review he specifically tried to avoid showing how many there were. Regardless of how good you think the edits are, he’s trying to push a narrative that no significant or purposeful changes were made, which is false.
And in his own words: Their argument goes something like, “We fixed a single typo in a Crunchyroll script! That makes us objectively better than Crunchyroll, hence we deserve an A!”
I think I’ve shown pretty objectively that the show’s content actually makes a difference for this show.
Dark_Sage’s argument goes something like this.
Attention All Legal Americans with Valid Editing Skills:
Dark_Sage 2016 is becoming a huge movement. The silent majority is here, and we’re going to take our anime back. The word is getting out that we have to stop the fansubbers.
The reason is, when fansubbers send their anime, they’re not sending their best. They’re sending anime that has lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems to America. They’re bringing GoodJobMedia, they’re bringing DameDesuYo, they’re cartel, and some, I assume, are good fansubbers.
I would build a great fansub group. Nobody subs anime better than me, believe me. And I’ll sub them very quickly. I will sub a great great anime and I’ll have fansubbers pay for it.
Also, I will be the greatest anime president that God ever created.
Don’t worry America, Dark_Sage 2016 will take our anime back.
Also, have you noticed I’m now translating my own anime? It’s nice. I’m not using anybody’s translation. I’m using my own translations. And it’s the best translation, believe me.
With “Dark_Sage obviously thinks there is something missing” I meant the “This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release”-things in the review, not the diff-check (see my first comment). To me a diff-check has no particularly meaning. And his review couldn’t convince me to not watch your release. Because non-fansubbers clearly CAN “understand and appreciate the effort that does go into releases” – your view of the non-fansubber seems a little bit one-sided (although there are indeed real shitheads out there). So even if the label “fakesub” is applicated, everybody has a chance to validate it, i.e. to look if the proposition of the review and the discussed content are coherent. That should be no news to anyone, since there’s no point in dismissing thinking and simply believe what others judge.
If current-gen fansubbers are seriously spending double, triple, or even quadruple the times listed, I can understand the frustration when I wave it away with my middle fingers because not enough dialogue was changed from a given base script.
Still, I am not going to change my standards halfway through a season. Next season, if I decide to continue with the reviews (lol), I will reconsider what constitutes as in-scope. That’s about the best I can offer there.
But sure, back to the moaning. You have every right to be pissed off if you’re spending like fucking 3 hours on a release only to be told you’re no better than Commie fucktrash. However, please understand what this site is.
This is not your typical circlejerk, and even if you’re not the subject of one of my reviews, you’re probably going to get burned by something you read. Yet nothing here is intended to be personal unless you make it that way. And if you do — if your preening narcissism doesn’t allow you to accept any form of non-sycophantic criticism — well, it’s been fun, but for all I honestly care you can just Crymore.
Glad we can come to some sort of understanding on this then. Fansubbers don’t strive to be the fastest anymore, and there’s no focus on lining up schedules like there used to be. We just get work done in relatively acceptable timeframes, and that’s that. And because of this, releases are generally much more polished than any oldsubs. Go compare GJM’s releases today to a Kaylith release, or go compare DDY’s current releases to the ones they did 3 years ago. It’s no competition. It’s just no longer feasible to speedsub when the simulcast will always beat you, and there’s rarely competition between fansubs anymore, so really why focus on anything but quality in all departments?
A few examples:
– I’m probably spending about 4-6 hours every week editing Matoi this season. No idea how you feel about my edit, because you’ve spent a year writing your review, but the point still stands.
– Mahoiku at GJM probably takes anywhere from 3-6 hours to typeset depending on how sign-heavy each episode is. You can ask Chhotu for specifics. They got blue on that show. To compare, here’s what it took to get “A+” on Nyaa in 2010: https://puu.sh/rU5uj.jpg …I think I’d rather CR typesetting to this.
– It probably takes me about 2 hours to time Mahoiku because there are some dialogue-heavy episodes, and like I said on twitter I rewatch my work as well as QC the script while I’m doing so before I pass it on. I know not every timer does this, but a lot of them do lately. Timing is expected to be flawless or very nearly. I’ve failed timing applicants for just a 3 or so big errors in over a hundred lines.
– Kokujin-kun and UndefinedSnail are spending up to 10 hours a week each on WWW.Working’s script. Typesetting also takes a few hours for that show.
– I heard iFanz spent 8 hours typesetting just episode 1 of Chihiro’s upcoming Occultic;Nine script. He puts at least a few hours a week into DDY’s Matoi typesetting as well.
– Rageo, DDY’s Re:Zero TLC, took 12 hours to TLC some episodes because the errors aren’t glaring ones, they were subtle errors that are still very incorrect.
And these are just a few examples, there’s plenty more from this season alone.
But yes, as you said, the point isn’t that we were expecting praise for our effort. We don’t care if you like what we’re putting out or not (though we’ll obviously listen to criticism), it’s that you threw all our work out the window and insulted our release by judging it solely on the edit and nothing else.
If this helps you at all in the future, today’s timeframes (and as I said earlier, this ignores scheduling + timezone issues) are more like so:
Edit: 2 hours (lazy edit) – 5 hours+(Aniplex script or similar)
QC: 30 minutes – 3 hours+ (I know a few QCs that rewatch multiple times. idk how they don’t burn themselves out doing that)
Timing: 1 hour – 2.5 hours (depends on the script length)
Encode: 3 hours – 16 hours+ (depends on encoder, really. Merging sources with various issues and dehardsubbing using other shittier sources takes a lot of effort, especially if the encoder is determined to make the encode as good as possible.)
Typesetting: 10 minutes – 5 hours+ (depends on the show, how many signs, how difficult they are, etc. You can’t really half-ass signs for TV like you could a few years ago, they need to be very nearly perfect.)
TLC: Depends on a lot of things, such as how long editor takes, if the TLC is happening before or after edit, or both, etc. So probably a little shorter than the edit in most cases. Things like Re:Zero and WWW.Working are exceptions because the translations are awful.
Agree with everything you said here. The only thing I wouldn’t agree with is the 2 hour (lazy edit). Even a normal edit can take 2 hours. It all depends on who is doing it: Funi, CR, Daisuki, and how bad/good they are. Generally, you are correct that a avg edit will take 2 hours+, but I still wouldn’t call that a “Lazy edit”.
I think of lazy edits as something under an hour where you’re watching a script and not changing anything unless it really glares out.
And hell, most of those numbers don’t include breaks or distractions in my head. After you consider that most people can’t sit around for 5 hours straight editing or typesetting a script, the numbers drastically change.
> QC: 30 minutes – 3 hours+ (I know a few QCs that rewatch multiple times. idk how they don’t burn themselves out doing that)
I got lured into QC’ing a show this season. The first two episodes took me 8-9 hours *each* (and that’s net time spent working, not counting breaks or anything) because I felt many things could be done better even if they weren’t mistakes per se. During this time I would:
— watch the episode normally to learn the overall context;
— watch it again, scene by scene, writing down everything that felt wrong, etc.;
— watch it again to confirm the lack of missed timing/typesetting/encoding hiccups and weed out remaining script issues. About a hundred notes (give or take a dozen) were written for either episode. Some more time would then be spent by other staff members implementing suggested fixes. So… yeah, projected time can bloat for pretty much any reason. And I’m still not fully satisfied with the result, but hey, you’ve got to draw the line somewhere.
I’m currently on episode 3, and burning out seems quite tricky to avoid at this rate. One thing I can tell for sure: next time I let myself be persuaded to do something like this, I better choose a show I would actually love to watch thrice in a row.
It’s an experiment, anyway. I have my reasons for engaging in it. I’d like to see whether I can succeed at this task at all and how far I can push the quality.
That said, spending 8-9 hours on an episode with this group doesn’t mean I would’ve spent less than 2-3 hours with any other unless they have a really talented editor. I’m actually pretty good at nitpicking, and I take time to explain my suggestions, look up references, etc. Things may not bother me much when I just watch an episode normally, but when I look at its script and begin thinking of ways to improve it, issues pop out immediately… in droves. Maybe I should register cryless.net and post the most gentle critique. There seems to be a market for this, considering how up in arms everyone gets when DS roasts them. :v
Actually I was being facetious. But that’s not to say I won’t revisit the idea at some point in future. It just feels like way too much effort right now.
It’s mostly if whoever is doing the work is producing stuff that needs/can be that nitpicked, their work isn’t valuable and you should just do it instead.
There’s no value in needing that much work when it gets to QC. Whoever’s doing that work just needs to be fired, and the project dropped if no one’s that interested.
Doing everything (and by everything I mean editing/timing/encoding, since those are the only things I know how to do) by myself would incur even greater time loss, and then I would need someone to QC my own edits. Besides, I’m not so arrogant to think I would make a very good editor without being a native English speaker. It may be an idealist standpoint, but I’d rather take a position where I can produce a result guaranteed to be superior.
Besides that, the amount of shows I would care to spend my time on has so far numbered about three or four for this entire year. Three out of those were never picked up by anyone, and one is being done by a group who isn’t looking for a QC (and frankly they’re doing a good enough job imo). If I were to get deeper into this business, I’d probably do something like what e.g. Kristen does—that is, taking the best sub available and improving it further by whatever means necessary. That shit sounds right up my alley.
Wow what a discussion! I’m interested in watching flip flappers and i’ll gladly wait for the BDs.
Even tho i do care more about the translation than the other things (typeset and encode, esthetic in general) i really like to watch an anime with the best possible option avaliable. That’s one of the reasons i’ll eagerly wait for months to watch flip flappers/girlish number and hibike, for instance. Anyway, i hope gjm/ddy will add a translation for op/ed, i really like to understand what they are saying, y’know.
Also D_S, i’m just a stupid spaghetti boy who doesn’t even understand english that much to begin with, but if i can make a suggestion, even though i love the fact that you don’t care about friendship and shit like that when you are objectively evalutating a fansub, i do think that you should reconsider your reviews. In my opinion we as individuals should always strive for better things, even if the difference is not that remarkable, i would prefer a review of GJM/DDY script/effort (while underlying the fact that the sub is mostly a re-edit) because who cares if i have to wait 48+ hours since CR’s release, if i can enchant my experience with the show, i would wait even 1 fucking week for a better episode.
Anyway, forgive me for weird expressions/stupid errors, i’m not that fluent with english ^^’
Let’s put it simply. DDY-GJM is objectively better than CR’s effort. Kara, TS, encode, these things will all be better than CR’s attempts at them, or lack thereof. There is no need for a DDY-GJM review on this site, because the site focuses mainly on the script, and DDY-GJM did not make substantial enough changes to warrant a review of their own based on their script.
And what do you mean, strive for better. Do you mean better as in time that it comes out, because CR is still quicker. Do you mean better as in what plays on phone/tv with little effort, cus CR still wins. Do you mean better as in what’s easy to get around to your devices, because without HS dyjm probably wins that. Or I guess deadfish?
The point being the review served it’s purpose, it just also had the side effect of making those useless fansubbers angry.
They used fansubs since crunchy basically didn’t exist, in the same way offical TLs did not. Anyway, speed isn’t a sign of quality, it’s just relatively better, i can contain my urges, and that’s the reason i’ll wait for a better version in… everything else?
It depends. If official source is terrible (like Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry), people will wait. But if official source is fine… Well, you already know the answer. People will just watch it asap.
I wish this were true, but the majority of people watch the first thing available, regardless of how bad it is. Take the anon subs of Kizu that used lines pulled from the novel for example.
How is this a ‘wish this were true?’ How are you expecting people that need subs to even be able to judge the subtitles on whether or not they need them? What are they supposed to do, trust some other anon that’s always cranky at releases telling them whether or not they like some rip enough to watch something they want to?
Even saying that fansubs are necessarily better quality just because they typeset is silly. Just like most people don’t notice typesetting, most people just don’t care.
It’s a useless wish that was only phrased that way to get across that he’s in a superior position to know.
In other words, it’s useless. How is it a ‘wish it were true?’ If you really did, you’d be involved in educating the public, not sitting in your club.
Whoa there, buck, jumping to a few conclusions about others’ intentions, don’t you think?
Not sure if Period killed your pet goldfish or something, but damn, that is some prime hostility you got there. You guys got history?
Oh, also, only I’m allowed to bash him, and I don’t plan on relinquishing that uh, responsibility, shall we say, any time soon. Thanks for understanding, partner.
what the fuck are you talking about govna
Well, fansubbers don’t know that ignorance is bliss. You won’t notice broken timing unless you know how it should be done.
Typesetting? I’m way too lazy to even read signs. This stuff is mostly irrevelant anyway.
Encode? There are only a few good encoders. And most people don’t have so called “encoder eyes” or whatever.
Basically, speed means everything when it comes to subs.
And, yes, translation quality. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant. Streams offer mostly acceptable translations and speed. What’s why most people don’t care about fansubs. It has nothing to do with quality, rly. It’s just speed. And, yeah, I use fansubs when official option is bad, but that’s it.
i stopped reading at “ignorance is bliss”. This is bullshit. Pathetic excuse for people that don’t want to improve their knowledge about a situation they find scary or that takes way to much effort or patience (as in this case).
No it’s just people that aren’t NEETs and watch anime for the anime, not the subtitles.
>that used lines pulled from the novel
I watched one of Kizu films using LN subs and found them fine. I wonder what D_S has to say about those; though I guess checking the gazillion Kizu subs is a pain.
What a wonderful discourse.
Why do people who’ve known the Sage for years act surprised when he trash-talks a release that really has very little to offer on the subtitle translation end of things?
Me personally, I care more about visual quality than I do translation as long as the meaning isn’t grossly misrepresented. The GJM-DDY encode looks beautiful, and good typesetting is awesome and worth waiting for, but unless my reading comprehension is several levels lower than I thought, that’s not was this site has ever been about.
I’m not even gonna waste my breath on the amount of bullshit you’re trying to pull in that closing statement.
You should reconsider those “fakesub” standards if you want to continue doing this in the current scene. This isn’t the same scene you left two or so years ago.
No. If the script is decent or flawless, you still have to change every line. That’s a fansubbing rule!
(Insert everything except translation) isn’t an important part of the fansub process anyway.
Joking aside, D_S rule is dumb. People that watch fansubs are probably more into visual quality (typeset, encode). Just saying. It’s dumb to not include them.
the only “quality” people that watch fansubs are interested in is a name inbetween two brackets
I provided several examples of lines that could use improvement. Either you didn’t read the post, or you couldn’t comprehend it, but neither of those two failings is on me.
Regarding fansubs, there is a not-insignificant “cost” associated with choosing a fanmade release over an official one. If your release’s value proposition is weak, then you should not be surprised when people choose not to make the switch.
In my analysis of GJM-DDY’s offering, I found the value proposition to be quite weak. There were no self-evident errors in the original encode or timing your average viewer would pick out as needing to be fixed, there is very little to typeset and all of it was already done in the officialsubs, the lines are essentially unchanged between the two releases meaning there are no notable script differences to point to as experience changing, and the distribution options don’t even match those of fansubs from several years ago. What, is karaoke the silver bullet? Cuz last I checked, only I cared about that shit.
So what, pray tell, is this release offering that makes it so fucking good when it can’t even convince *me* it provides any notably different experience from a fucking Crunchyroll stream? Cuz I think my boy moron just hit the nail on the head as to why you claim to like it so much.
…I’m not even wasting my breath on this miserable counterargument. You’re a hack.
We’ve had this argument several times and I think both of us have been rather firm in our positions. Just because I like you doesn’t mean I’m gonna treat your subs any differently from other groups’.
The video quality looks much better than Crunchyroll. Maybe they used a different source (checked episode 3)? That’s enough for me to watch them, so I don’t have to suffer with the overload of banding (thx CR).
I mean, if it can’t convince you it’s notably different from CR, why are you waiting for it? I don’t think anyone’s claiming that this release is “saving” the show from CR or anything, so does it really matter as long as the final product does offer improvements in the form of encoding, TS, kfx, etc.?
Fair enough, I didn’t quite explain that at the end there. Updated terminology from “going with” to “archiving”.
tl;dr: If I want to watch the show and Crunchyroll’s got an episode out but GJM-DDY doesn’t, I won’t hesitate to go for the Crunchysubs. This shit’s more archive material and if I ever get a hankering for the karaoke, I can just go back to an earlier downloaded episode.
Also, when Fyurie isn’t PMSing, I generally like the guy, and the staff I’m familiar with are decent people, so I feel comfortable adding this release to my collection. I’ve done the same for releases that I acknowledged were worse than the alternatives — for example, [Interrobang]/[IB] usually had the worst version of any given show, but I got along well with the dudes there, so their shit ended up being what I archived.
Wow, you and Period are so butthurt. It’s like you’re on a Fyurious Period
Get outta here with that terrible joke. :^(
pls no
This joke just got better by having Fyurie and Period directly below him in the comment chain
It’s not as if a joint means twice the manpower.
How is proper timing, typesetting, fixing issues with a script that doesn’t need rewritten, a better encode, and the odd TL error fixed /not/ a fansub by any standards?
Hurr durr, it’s not your script, you moron.
So?
“Don’t fix what ain’t broke is a good concept. Another good concept: don’t re-release someone else’s effort and brand it as your own original work if you haven’t so much as touched it.”
That’s at best just an argument for crediting the editor as a QC in this case. The typesetting, encode, karaoke, those are all original efforts. Minor script problems are still fixed. Is it so different that it’s worth waiting for over CR? That depends on your preferences, but there’s enough work put into the other categories that calling it “just a rebrand” isn’t at all being fair.
It’s not your own translations so it can’t be even called fansub. What is so hard too understand?
Original TL is not a requirement for fansubbing. If it was, no BD group would be considered a fansub group, and a number of releases from FFF, Commie, Hiryuu, DDY, Asenshi, Chihiro, and nearly every other group in existence wouldn’t be fansubs. You’re not the arbiter of what is and isn’t fansubbing. And to that end, I disagree with how D_S claims GJM-DDY’s release isn’t a fansub, even though I completely agree with his decision to not review it.
>Original TL is not a requirement for fansubbing
U wot m8. English scene doesn’t have fansubbers. It’s just fanediting/typesetting.
So, did you just imply that the only people who can be called fansubbers are TLs, and that anyone who does any other task in the process of producing subtitles isn’t a fansubber? Because that’d be really retarded, so I hope that’s not what you’re saying.
Sure, they’re faneditors. That’s what I said. You can’t fansub without translator. Prove me wrong.
==
So, did you just imply that few changes made to official script make you a fansubber? Because that’d be really retarded, so I hope that’s not what you’re saying.
I consider QCs fansubbers, even when they’re working on scripts that are already rather polished. If you work on a project where you are adding subtitles to anime, you are subbing. If you are doing that out of love for the medium without monetary compensation, that’s fansubbing. Translating things yourself is an option, but is not required if another translation is available. That also makes whether nor not your work is necessary a question, but that doesn’t change that you are working on subtitles, which is the thing that makes it fansubbing.
We as fansubbers don’t really have to “prove you wrong.” As the people who do the work, we get to define what is and is not fansubbing.
Watching anime is your hobby, subbing it is ours. Until you breach that gap and try doing all the parts of subbing (in competition with simulcasts) yourself, you don’t really get much of a say in what is fansubbing and what isn’t.
Dark_Sage has a tenuous claim to that as he is an ex-fansubber, but I believe he had basically left the scene before simulcasts became grossly available. I could be wrong about that, though.
HeavenlyArmed’s definition is pretty fair. Do you have any better definition for a fansub?
I checked in right around ’08 and checked out somewhere between 2011 and 2012. Fansubs still had a fighting chance when I dropped from that side of the scene.
Now, just because “I have a say” doesn’t mean I believe my viewpoint is the only right one. I talk in absolutes and with strong language, but that’s how I talk about everything. Everyone’s got their own thoughts on the matter, and mine are colored heavily by experiences that very few share. If the scene wants to shift goalposts, that’s fine, but I do not feel obliged to shift mine in turn.
In essence, I do not see anything unhealthy with agreeing to disagree. Taking it personally, though? Probably not for the best.
I just had a problem with Lmao’s attitude on it, honestly.
As for your assessment of GJM-DDY’s Flip-Flappers, it’s fair to say that the value added may not be significant enough for you to wait, but that’s a personal belief (as you said in comments). I realize I stand next to no chance of changing your opinion, but let’s put the compare and number of script changes into perspective with another one of DDY’s shows this season: WWW. Working!!.
Show: Flip Flappers 02
Diffcheck: https://www.diffchecker.com/uHzNVI3F (CR left, GJM-DDY right)
Total Changes: 83
Word count: 1050
Ratio (changes/words): .079
Longest sentence:
79 characters, 12 words: Retrieving the fragments scattered there is your job for the foreseeable future
Average Sentence Length (word) 3.2
Short Words (=7 characters): 118
Most common words:
1. cocona 38 (3.6%)
2. papika 16 (1.5%)
3. go 14 (1.3%)
4. i’m 13 (1.2%)
5. uexküll 13 (1.2%)
Show: WWW. Working!! 02
Diffcheck: https://www.diffchecker.com/HxJf4Xpo (CR left, DDY right)
Total changes: 372
Word count: 2443
Ratio (changes/words): .152
Longest sentence:
99 characters, 16 words: Schoolwork is indispensable in every student’s search for a career that is suited to their talents,
Average Sentence Length (word) 5.3
Short Words (=7 characters): 278
Most common words:
1. me 34 (1.4%)
2. her 21 (0.9%)
3. don’t 17 (0.7%)
4. it’s 17 (0.7%)
5. i’m 16 (0.7%)
Flip-Flappers is not a dialogue heavy show and is almost entirely translationally correct (because Sentai is somewhat competent translation-wise and has been pretty consistently). As you can see, it’s primarily 1-3 word sentences and dominated by the characters yelling each other’s names. What edits could be made to such short lines? The only way I can think of would be to make lines incorrect, as you suggested with the “hard” line. What would you suggest we do with lines that the show hasn’t explained yet, like the “fragments” one? Dropping in any other interpretations for those lines than what the TLC provided for that line would be adding translation errors.
Compare that to http://WWW.Working !! which is a dialogue heavy show and translated by Aniplex. Almost every line needs to be rewritten because almost every line is incorrect and horribly written. The level of attention that needs to be given to the script is astronomically higher than to Flip-Flappers and yet the edit ratio is only just under two times FF’s. That’s pretty impressive, if you ask me.
Honestly, your diff-check is misleading — cherry-picked, even. It shows one of the sections with the fewest changes. Earlier sections have more changes, but they wouldn’t have supported your claim of “fake-subs” as well. That said, even if you had been more fair with your screenshot, it still would have appeared slim… because there just isn’t much to change in the show and there’s no way around that. Many of your criticisms of Crunchyroll’s script are nitpicks, not the blantant errors that we see from other licensors and it shows in the script. Even if there is room for an “editor’s personality to shine through,” which there really isn’t much of, you mocked the cases where the editor did take those liberties.
If you need other reasons to watch our release over CR/HS, consider the timing, the typesetting ( http://i.imgur.com/DHEDBT5.png, http://i.imgur.com/Iss9qVJ.png http://i.imgur.com/GU552Ha.png http://i.imgur.com/dH8A7hl.jpg ), the songs we translated, the kfx (which features audio-linked effects, requiring an audio-processing library for kfx that had to be written from scratch http://i.imgur.com/ZBi720m.png ), or the encode ( which even you should be able to see the difference http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/188752/picture:0 – from ep 3 because I had the compare already ).
Calling the GJM-DDY release a “fake-sub” is to discredit the amount of effort that was put into it. That term, when you coined it, was for essentially HorribleSubs remuxes. This is not even close to a remux; it’s just a show with very little to translate, much less correct.
Note: while I am the leader of one of these groups, I really had nothing to do with the work done on it. I can still appreciate the effort that went into it and find it kind of insulting, as Fyurie did, that you—an ex-fansubber—would try to perpetuate the joke that the number of edits equates to the quality.
I mean, it’s more like you stand next to no chance of changing my opinion.
I’m not discrediting the amount of effort that went into this release; instead, I’m highlighting it. Look, you know damn well how much time it actually takes to execute every one of the tasks you highlighted. How long do the *amazing* timing fixes actually take? How about the minimal edits? The application of the already-created kfx? The fucking encode? 2-and-a-half days? Really?
Can you honestly fucking sit there and say you poured your best effort into this and could not have put a goddamn ounce more soul into it in the time it took to slap your meaningless joint tag there? And I use the term “you” very loosely, because apparently you don’t believe the buck stops at leadership.
Come on, begna, you’re a better person than this. Or at least, you once were.
Actually, I’m DDY’s “leader” on this project and I’m 110% satisfied with what we’re putting out. DDY’s hierarchy doesn’t function how you think it does, so patronizing begna is meaningless when he has no hands on the script.
>How long do the *amazing* timing fixes actually take?
Timing obviously takes an hour to a few hours, depending on how fast the timer is (CR scripts take about two hours at most for me) and anyone who knows the basics of timing can tell that CR, while the most competent of simulcasts, still throws basic timing rules out the window all the time. Maybe individual lines don’t matter, but good timing gives you an overall better impression of the show.
But I shouldn’t need to tell you this, because you’re an ex-fansubber.
>How about the minimal edits?
If you look at that diffchecker, there was quite a bit of discussion over lines, and that’s just what was on the pad. There was more on IRC. The lines that matter were certainly looked at and the meaningless lines that we would’ve wasted time on if we tried to edit weren’t. I’d love to see someone edit those meaningless 1-3 word sentences into something amazing, because I highly doubt that’s possible. And that’s probably over half the script.
But I shouldn’t need to tell you this, because you seem to already understand that CR’s script is pretty good.
>The application of the already-created kfx?
Logarithm literally spent over a week on the kfx, and like begna said, wrote an entirely new library for it. In fact, EP2 was delayed very slightly FOR the kfx.
You ever written an entire library just to process audio?
>The fucking encode?
A good encode can take up to eight hours to encode or more. I’ve seen bluray encodes take over 60, and I heard a certain TV encode this season took over 50. And hell, for ep3 we even had a v2 for the encode. That’s the one we released with, and the results are good:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/188752/picture:0
The difference here is significant. But I shouldn’t need to tell you this, because you have eyes.
You didn’t mention typesetting at all. Did you look at this? http://i.imgur.com/dH8A7hl.jpg
This kind of stuff can take hours or more, and goes to show just how much our TSer cares about attention-to-detail. Hell, he masked all the robots faces and put the japanese characters back on them with a smaller font size just so he could fit the English onto them. That’s a lot of effort when he could’ve just forced them inbetween the kanji.
But I shouldn’t need to tell you this, because you include a TS section in your reviews, even if you only give one sentences critiques at the very end.
We’re sorry for not rushing our releases out and instead holding on to them until we’re completely satisfied with our work. We’re not trying to change your opinion, and we don’t give a shit that you didn’t review us, but we’re telling you that we sure as hell put effort into this and it’s sure as hell a better product than CR. Because this…
>I will personally be archiving GJM-DDY for Flip Flappers, but I refuse to call their re-encodes a fansub. That it took a joint to cobble together a 30-minute edit like this hurts my soul.
…is simply bull. Regardless of how you want to define a “fansub”, this certainly isn’t a “re-encode” nor a “fakesub”. Fansubs aren’t here to compete with simulcasts for speed when the simulcast is already good, we’re here to make a more enticing product as well as an archivable one. You seem to recognize that, but what you don’t recognize is that forcing in edits where they don’t belong and potentially making a script worse because of it would only degrade the final product. Worth adding that we’ve always credited the simulcasters for their translations, and we’re not claiming the base script as our own.
Last but not least I’ll bring up the fact (again) that you seem to have no idea of how a joint works. This is using staff from both groups to fill up positions. We don’t have five typesettings, editors, and timers on the project, like you seem to be indirectly suggesting. Neither group had enough staff to do the show themselves.
If you seriously think that our release is as dismissible as a literal re-encode, then you’re no better than the people who download cam rips from movie theaters, because you must be shutting off your eyes and ears just to “enjoy” whatever you’re watching. We’re not here to fix the things that aren’t broken, but we are here to fix everything else that is.
I didn’t really write a whole new library, most of the work was done by Youka in writing the frequency analyzer part of Yutils, it took me a week to write a few functions to use it effectively and a few more to translate that to transform tags because I have other things to do with my life
Thanks for this, I didn’t bother to wait for GJM-DDY’s slow release anyway.
>slow
But their release is the opposite of that.
I summon you, herkz, the master of fakeditor.
The more the merrier!
https://twitter.com/herkzzz/status/790287180094550016
So… probably not happening.
RIP Xythar_v2
Now taking applications for v3.
Hey Heavenly. GJ-bu and Yuyushiki alive and well? :^)
Not those right now, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have something else in the works!
Wow, so hot’n cold.
Fighting over the definiton of one word (“fansub”) instead of considering the “This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release”-thing, i.e. considering the content of this review, is what politicians or SJWs do. Why care this much about “fan-” or “fakesub”, although there are multiple points regarding the editing of this show to talk – or at least think – about? It’s always as if fanfakesubbing as a whole is in question… whereas in this case, only the editing is in question.
Except there’s nothing to talk about there. Yes, there are improvements that could be made that GJM-DDY didn’t make, and improvements that could be made that they did make. That’s not disputable. No one is upset over the idea that the GJM-DDY release isn’t perfect, they’re upset that it’s being labelled as “not a fansub”, because they feel that label discredits the work that goes into the parts besides the editing.
Only those are upset who didn’t read the review. Everybody else knows why the GJM-DDY-release is labelled as fakesub (and most of them know the criteria for a long time). I too think this label is not appropriate, but I also know what it means in this case. So only because the word “fakesub” is strong, everybody snaps? Although they know it only affects the absence of editing – of which you think (if I understand correctly), there is nothing to talk about. I don’t know the latter, but Dark_Sage obviously thinks there is something missing, i.e. to talk about. So prove him wrong (not you personally, but generally). I think this fakesub-“discussion” has gone out of proportion for a long enough time.
Hypothetical situation: you devote 25+ hours per week, essentially a part-time job, to your hobby for the pleasure of other people. Someone with a website and some salty readers comes along, telling everyone that your efforts are “fake” and not worth watching.
I think you would be kind of upset too, especially when it boils down to “he said-she said” on how much effort is involved. Non-fansubbers simply can’t understand and appreciate the effort that does go into releases.
>So prove him wrong (not you personally, but generally).
See my comments above where I tried to do just that: to point out that there’s just nothing much to edit in this show and that the compare he linked is misleading. I got personal attacks in return. Apparently, it’s not to be talked about and we’re just supposed to accept the judgment handed down.
If you look at “fakesub” reviews in the past, you see a pretty stark difference. Whereas before his diff-checks sought to show all the differences (as few as they were), in this review he specifically tried to avoid showing how many there were. Regardless of how good you think the edits are, he’s trying to push a narrative that no significant or purposeful changes were made, which is false.
example:
http://www.crymore.net/2013/10/12/fakesub-review-commie-galilei-donnasamurai-flamencoyowamushi-pedal-episode-01/
And in his own words: Their argument goes something like, “We fixed a single typo in a Crunchyroll script! That makes us objectively better than Crunchyroll, hence we deserve an A!”
I think I’ve shown pretty objectively that the show’s content actually makes a difference for this show.
Dark_Sage’s argument goes something like this.
Attention All Legal Americans with Valid Editing Skills:
Dark_Sage 2016 is becoming a huge movement. The silent majority is here, and we’re going to take our anime back. The word is getting out that we have to stop the fansubbers.
The reason is, when fansubbers send their anime, they’re not sending their best. They’re sending anime that has lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems to America. They’re bringing GoodJobMedia, they’re bringing DameDesuYo, they’re cartel, and some, I assume, are good fansubbers.
I would build a great fansub group. Nobody subs anime better than me, believe me. And I’ll sub them very quickly. I will sub a great great anime and I’ll have fansubbers pay for it.
Also, I will be the greatest anime president that God ever created.
Don’t worry America, Dark_Sage 2016 will take our anime back.
Also, have you noticed I’m now translating my own anime? It’s nice. I’m not using anybody’s translation. I’m using my own translations. And it’s the best translation, believe me.
That is all.
You’re Welcome.
Dark_Sage
With “Dark_Sage obviously thinks there is something missing” I meant the “This is unchanged in the GJM-DDY release”-things in the review, not the diff-check (see my first comment). To me a diff-check has no particularly meaning. And his review couldn’t convince me to not watch your release. Because non-fansubbers clearly CAN “understand and appreciate the effort that does go into releases” – your view of the non-fansubber seems a little bit one-sided (although there are indeed real shitheads out there). So even if the label “fakesub” is applicated, everybody has a chance to validate it, i.e. to look if the proposition of the review and the discussed content are coherent. That should be no news to anyone, since there’s no point in dismissing thinking and simply believe what others judge.
All right, so I think there’s a bit of a disconnect here. And by a bit of a disconnect, I mean a large one.
When I’m evaluating the effort of a given release, these are the timelines I’m thinking of:
Edit: 45 minutes – 1.5 hours
QC: 30 – 45 minutes
Timing: 30 minutes – 1 hour
Encode: 1 – 2 hours
TL: #lol
TLC: 45 minutes – 1.5 hours
If current-gen fansubbers are seriously spending double, triple, or even quadruple the times listed, I can understand the frustration when I wave it away with my middle fingers because not enough dialogue was changed from a given base script.
Still, I am not going to change my standards halfway through a season. Next season, if I decide to continue with the reviews (lol), I will reconsider what constitutes as in-scope. That’s about the best I can offer there.
But sure, back to the moaning. You have every right to be pissed off if you’re spending like fucking 3 hours on a release only to be told you’re no better than Commie fucktrash. However, please understand what this site is.
This is not your typical circlejerk, and even if you’re not the subject of one of my reviews, you’re probably going to get burned by something you read. Yet nothing here is intended to be personal unless you make it that way. And if you do — if your preening narcissism doesn’t allow you to accept any form of non-sycophantic criticism — well, it’s been fun, but for all I honestly care you can just Crymore.
Glad we can come to some sort of understanding on this then. Fansubbers don’t strive to be the fastest anymore, and there’s no focus on lining up schedules like there used to be. We just get work done in relatively acceptable timeframes, and that’s that. And because of this, releases are generally much more polished than any oldsubs. Go compare GJM’s releases today to a Kaylith release, or go compare DDY’s current releases to the ones they did 3 years ago. It’s no competition. It’s just no longer feasible to speedsub when the simulcast will always beat you, and there’s rarely competition between fansubs anymore, so really why focus on anything but quality in all departments?
A few examples:
– I’m probably spending about 4-6 hours every week editing Matoi this season. No idea how you feel about my edit, because you’ve spent a year writing your review, but the point still stands.
– Mahoiku at GJM probably takes anywhere from 3-6 hours to typeset depending on how sign-heavy each episode is. You can ask Chhotu for specifics. They got blue on that show. To compare, here’s what it took to get “A+” on Nyaa in 2010: https://puu.sh/rU5uj.jpg …I think I’d rather CR typesetting to this.
– It probably takes me about 2 hours to time Mahoiku because there are some dialogue-heavy episodes, and like I said on twitter I rewatch my work as well as QC the script while I’m doing so before I pass it on. I know not every timer does this, but a lot of them do lately. Timing is expected to be flawless or very nearly. I’ve failed timing applicants for just a 3 or so big errors in over a hundred lines.
– Kokujin-kun and UndefinedSnail are spending up to 10 hours a week each on WWW.Working’s script. Typesetting also takes a few hours for that show.
– I heard iFanz spent 8 hours typesetting just episode 1 of Chihiro’s upcoming Occultic;Nine script. He puts at least a few hours a week into DDY’s Matoi typesetting as well.
– Rageo, DDY’s Re:Zero TLC, took 12 hours to TLC some episodes because the errors aren’t glaring ones, they were subtle errors that are still very incorrect.
And these are just a few examples, there’s plenty more from this season alone.
But yes, as you said, the point isn’t that we were expecting praise for our effort. We don’t care if you like what we’re putting out or not (though we’ll obviously listen to criticism), it’s that you threw all our work out the window and insulted our release by judging it solely on the edit and nothing else.
If this helps you at all in the future, today’s timeframes (and as I said earlier, this ignores scheduling + timezone issues) are more like so:
Edit: 2 hours (lazy edit) – 5 hours+(Aniplex script or similar)
QC: 30 minutes – 3 hours+ (I know a few QCs that rewatch multiple times. idk how they don’t burn themselves out doing that)
Timing: 1 hour – 2.5 hours (depends on the script length)
Encode: 3 hours – 16 hours+ (depends on encoder, really. Merging sources with various issues and dehardsubbing using other shittier sources takes a lot of effort, especially if the encoder is determined to make the encode as good as possible.)
Typesetting: 10 minutes – 5 hours+ (depends on the show, how many signs, how difficult they are, etc. You can’t really half-ass signs for TV like you could a few years ago, they need to be very nearly perfect.)
TLC: Depends on a lot of things, such as how long editor takes, if the TLC is happening before or after edit, or both, etc. So probably a little shorter than the edit in most cases. Things like Re:Zero and WWW.Working are exceptions because the translations are awful.
So, Chihiro is doing Occultic. I wonder if they’ll finish it.
Agree with everything you said here. The only thing I wouldn’t agree with is the 2 hour (lazy edit). Even a normal edit can take 2 hours. It all depends on who is doing it: Funi, CR, Daisuki, and how bad/good they are. Generally, you are correct that a avg edit will take 2 hours+, but I still wouldn’t call that a “Lazy edit”.
I think of lazy edits as something under an hour where you’re watching a script and not changing anything unless it really glares out.
Fair enough, yeah. Honestly just picked a number at random for the minimum. I never edit that quickly but I could imagine a few people could.
And hell, most of those numbers don’t include breaks or distractions in my head. After you consider that most people can’t sit around for 5 hours straight editing or typesetting a script, the numbers drastically change.
>No idea how you feel about my edit
It’s trash tbqh
I’m having some chocolate popcorn, but if anyone wants to join me, I wouldn’t mind. Just say so!
same
same
> QC: 30 minutes – 3 hours+ (I know a few QCs that rewatch multiple times. idk how they don’t burn themselves out doing that)
I got lured into QC’ing a show this season. The first two episodes took me 8-9 hours *each* (and that’s net time spent working, not counting breaks or anything) because I felt many things could be done better even if they weren’t mistakes per se. During this time I would:
— watch the episode normally to learn the overall context;
— watch it again, scene by scene, writing down everything that felt wrong, etc.;
— watch it again to confirm the lack of missed timing/typesetting/encoding hiccups and weed out remaining script issues. About a hundred notes (give or take a dozen) were written for either episode. Some more time would then be spent by other staff members implementing suggested fixes. So… yeah, projected time can bloat for pretty much any reason. And I’m still not fully satisfied with the result, but hey, you’ve got to draw the line somewhere.
I’m currently on episode 3, and burning out seems quite tricky to avoid at this rate. One thing I can tell for sure: next time I let myself be persuaded to do something like this, I better choose a show I would actually love to watch thrice in a row.
If you’re spending 8-9 hrs an episode to QC, it’s time to quit that group.
But… I just got there. :v
It’s an experiment, anyway. I have my reasons for engaging in it. I’d like to see whether I can succeed at this task at all and how far I can push the quality.
That said, spending 8-9 hours on an episode with this group doesn’t mean I would’ve spent less than 2-3 hours with any other unless they have a really talented editor. I’m actually pretty good at nitpicking, and I take time to explain my suggestions, look up references, etc. Things may not bother me much when I just watch an episode normally, but when I look at its script and begin thinking of ways to improve it, issues pop out immediately… in droves. Maybe I should register cryless.net and post the most gentle critique. There seems to be a market for this, considering how up in arms everyone gets when DS roasts them. :v
“Maybe I should register cryless.net and post the most gentle critique.”
:O
If you were serious… Yes please, absolutely! The more fansub reviewers the better! I don’t think there could ever be enough of them.
Actually I was being facetious. But that’s not to say I won’t revisit the idea at some point in future. It just feels like way too much effort right now.
It’s mostly if whoever is doing the work is producing stuff that needs/can be that nitpicked, their work isn’t valuable and you should just do it instead.
There’s no value in needing that much work when it gets to QC. Whoever’s doing that work just needs to be fired, and the project dropped if no one’s that interested.
Doing everything (and by everything I mean editing/timing/encoding, since those are the only things I know how to do) by myself would incur even greater time loss, and then I would need someone to QC my own edits. Besides, I’m not so arrogant to think I would make a very good editor without being a native English speaker. It may be an idealist standpoint, but I’d rather take a position where I can produce a result guaranteed to be superior.
Besides that, the amount of shows I would care to spend my time on has so far numbered about three or four for this entire year. Three out of those were never picked up by anyone, and one is being done by a group who isn’t looking for a QC (and frankly they’re doing a good enough job imo). If I were to get deeper into this business, I’d probably do something like what e.g. Kristen does—that is, taking the best sub available and improving it further by whatever means necessary. That shit sounds right up my alley.
Wow what a discussion! I’m interested in watching flip flappers and i’ll gladly wait for the BDs.
Even tho i do care more about the translation than the other things (typeset and encode, esthetic in general) i really like to watch an anime with the best possible option avaliable. That’s one of the reasons i’ll eagerly wait for months to watch flip flappers/girlish number and hibike, for instance. Anyway, i hope gjm/ddy will add a translation for op/ed, i really like to understand what they are saying, y’know.
Also D_S, i’m just a stupid spaghetti boy who doesn’t even understand english that much to begin with, but if i can make a suggestion, even though i love the fact that you don’t care about friendship and shit like that when you are objectively evalutating a fansub, i do think that you should reconsider your reviews. In my opinion we as individuals should always strive for better things, even if the difference is not that remarkable, i would prefer a review of GJM/DDY script/effort (while underlying the fact that the sub is mostly a re-edit) because who cares if i have to wait 48+ hours since CR’s release, if i can enchant my experience with the show, i would wait even 1 fucking week for a better episode.
Anyway, forgive me for weird expressions/stupid errors, i’m not that fluent with english ^^’
Keep it up (both D_S and GJM/DDY)!
Let’s put it simply. DDY-GJM is objectively better than CR’s effort. Kara, TS, encode, these things will all be better than CR’s attempts at them, or lack thereof. There is no need for a DDY-GJM review on this site, because the site focuses mainly on the script, and DDY-GJM did not make substantial enough changes to warrant a review of their own based on their script.
>Anyway, i hope gjm/ddy will add a translation for op/ed
Of course we have an OP/ED TL :v
An objective evaluation is a lie anyway.
And what do you mean, strive for better. Do you mean better as in time that it comes out, because CR is still quicker. Do you mean better as in what plays on phone/tv with little effort, cus CR still wins. Do you mean better as in what’s easy to get around to your devices, because without HS dyjm probably wins that. Or I guess deadfish?
The point being the review served it’s purpose, it just also had the side effect of making those useless fansubbers angry.
Obviously no one downloads fansubs for speed, and Deadfish uses fansubs for their encodes.
What do you mean, ‘obviously.’ For quite a huge amount of time that was the sole reason people downloaded fansubs.
They used fansubs since crunchy basically didn’t exist, in the same way offical TLs did not. Anyway, speed isn’t a sign of quality, it’s just relatively better, i can contain my urges, and that’s the reason i’ll wait for a better version in… everything else?
It depends. If official source is terrible (like Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry), people will wait. But if official source is fine… Well, you already know the answer. People will just watch it asap.
I wish this were true, but the majority of people watch the first thing available, regardless of how bad it is. Take the anon subs of Kizu that used lines pulled from the novel for example.
How is this a ‘wish this were true?’ How are you expecting people that need subs to even be able to judge the subtitles on whether or not they need them? What are they supposed to do, trust some other anon that’s always cranky at releases telling them whether or not they like some rip enough to watch something they want to?
Even saying that fansubs are necessarily better quality just because they typeset is silly. Just like most people don’t notice typesetting, most people just don’t care.
I uh, don’t think you know what “wish” means, my cranky, cranky little friend.
It’s a useless wish that was only phrased that way to get across that he’s in a superior position to know.
In other words, it’s useless. How is it a ‘wish it were true?’ If you really did, you’d be involved in educating the public, not sitting in your club.
Whoa there, buck, jumping to a few conclusions about others’ intentions, don’t you think?
Not sure if Period killed your pet goldfish or something, but damn, that is some prime hostility you got there. You guys got history?
Oh, also, only I’m allowed to bash him, and I don’t plan on relinquishing that uh, responsibility, shall we say, any time soon. Thanks for understanding, partner.
what the fuck are you talking about govna
Well, fansubbers don’t know that ignorance is bliss. You won’t notice broken timing unless you know how it should be done.
Typesetting? I’m way too lazy to even read signs. This stuff is mostly irrevelant anyway.
Encode? There are only a few good encoders. And most people don’t have so called “encoder eyes” or whatever.
Basically, speed means everything when it comes to subs.
And, yes, translation quality. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant. Streams offer mostly acceptable translations and speed. What’s why most people don’t care about fansubs. It has nothing to do with quality, rly. It’s just speed. And, yeah, I use fansubs when official option is bad, but that’s it.
i stopped reading at “ignorance is bliss”. This is bullshit. Pathetic excuse for people that don’t want to improve their knowledge about a situation they find scary or that takes way to much effort or patience (as in this case).
No it’s just people that aren’t NEETs and watch anime for the anime, not the subtitles.
>that used lines pulled from the novel
I watched one of Kizu films using LN subs and found them fine. I wonder what D_S has to say about those; though I guess checking the gazillion Kizu subs is a pain.
Flip Flappers is a good show.
In the end, the CR release is “good enough”, and I’m just happy that CR does it.
I really don’t get why a group will still “sub” this show though. Truly a waste of work.
Because it interests them? Groups don’t do shows that you want them to do. They do shows they take an interest in.
Why dont u just trashtalk about Period memesubs rather than making such a drama for legit release :^(
This was more fun than trying to teach how to avoid filling every line of dialogue with incorrect stock phrases.
What a wonderful discourse.
Why do people who’ve known the Sage for years act surprised when he trash-talks a release that really has very little to offer on the subtitle translation end of things?
Me personally, I care more about visual quality than I do translation as long as the meaning isn’t grossly misrepresented. The GJM-DDY encode looks beautiful, and good typesetting is awesome and worth waiting for, but unless my reading comprehension is several levels lower than I thought, that’s not was this site has ever been about.
Same.
Video quality>typesetting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>subtitle quality.