81 thoughts on “Fansub Review: [Commie] Stella Jogakuin Koutouka C3-bu (Episode 05)”

1. When you abuse your artistic license, you get this.

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2. >since Vivid is essentially a branch of Commie.

   Nope. Some staff are in both groups (along with others) but the two groups themselves have nothing to do with each other. That’d be like calling Anime-Koi a branch of Commie because their translator for this show is in Commie as well and they speedsub. Yeah, totally the same group.

   I know you’re just saying that to bait me to respond and that I’m just giving you what you want by bothering to correct you, but I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t purposefully spread misinformation.

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   • To put it simply, Vivid is a hodgepodge of collaborations between different fansub groups. Did I get that correctly?

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     • We’re just a group of friends who fansub, same as any other. The founders of the group are me, unanimated, and Devana, and you’ll likely find one or more of us on the staff list for every show Vivid turns out.

       Practically every popular group these days shares staff with other groups, because there just aren’t enough competent staff to go around otherwise. I personally edit for five other groups besides Vivid on a pretty regular basis.

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   • I just popped on by your channel.

     

     Commie staff: Khyz, unanimated, Aoi-chan, Vale, Xythar, Futsuu, torchlight, Konbu.
     Nyaa mods: aers, Raze, Eien
     Other: furzi

     Yeah, sure. Totally not a Commie offshoot.

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     • Kyhz is also in gg and Underwater.
       unanimated is in IB and has worked with UTW on a couple of shows.
       Aoi-chan is distro for a wide variety of groups.
       Vale is in practically every group under the sun.
       I work with five other groups besides Vivid, as previously noted.
       Futsuu is also in UTW, FFF, and Underwater.
       torchlight is also in Underwater.
       Konbu is… okay, you got me there.

       But yeah, we’re all just Commie staff, sure.

       How about instead of defining who belongs to who by counting the staff they share (in which case I’m pretty sure FFF was a division of GotWoot at one point) you listen to what the people in charge have to say? “Branch” implies that Commie management has any say over what we do.

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       • It’s pretty obvious which group’s staff pool you were recruiting from. The single biggest commonality between everyone in your group is that the majority of you are from Commie.

         You might think people are too stupid to connect the dots, but it’s not hard to draw a line between Vivid and Commie. I get that you guys wanted a bit of distance from RHE’s meanness, but let’s be realists about Vivid’s status as a group.

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         • I was recruiting from the staff pool known as “reliable friends”. I’d say the single biggest commonality is that we know what we’re doing and get shit done on time. Yes, we share 8 staff with Commie (fnord included). We also share 6 with UTW, 7 with Underwater (Daiz included) and 5 with gg, so I guess we’re just branches of those groups too.

           I’m sure you made sure your own group stood on its own as a full, separate entity by only recruiting staff who were in no other groups, right?

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           • Well that sure changes things. I can’t believe I ever implied Vivid wasn’t an independent group, full of fresh blood, moxie, and a willingness to break the rules and get things done. You’re right, there is absolutely nothing to indicate your group is exactly what I implied it was.

             As for Whine-Subs, we have a slightly more varied pool of recruits. I recruit based on talent or potential rather than typical fansub methods. So no, you won’t find my crew burdened with the usual suspects.

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             • And the most important criteria: willingness to put up with you.

               But yes, I’m sure you’ve never had anyone who was in multiple other groups like Caly, fgg, Puff, furzi, or Sutai on your staff roll before. That’d just be hypocritical.

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               • I’ve never had a majority of my group from another single group before, no.

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                 • Neither have I, unless the word “single” has changed meaning since last I checked.

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                   • Playing ignorant isn’t going to do anything other than waste my readers’ time. By “single” I meant “from the same”.

                     Read: More than half don’t come from the same group. (Phrasing it this way is a bit awkward though.)

                   • My point is that there are about three other groups that Vivid shares half its staff with. You could just as easily make a case for it being “a branch of Underwater” or “a branch of UTW” based on the exact same criteria but naturally, that wouldn’t get the reaction you were aiming for.

                     Why has it not crossed your mind yet that trying to mathematically prove political divisions is a really stupid thing to do? All that should be necessary is for me to say, as leader of the group, that Vivid isn’t a branch of Commie. You think you know better than me about my own group’s relationships and policies? I’m sure Kristen would love to hear your conspiracy theories. You’ll be in good company.

                   • You’re talking about a relatively insular section of fansubbing. You’re probably right though, there’s very little to connect your group members together. Those groups are completely different.

                     http://www.crymore.net/2013/04/24/fansubbing-a-blog-post-part-1-affiliations/

                     Megas conspiracy years in the making.

                   • Yes, the groups in the “cartel” share a lot of staff and NT mods. I don’t think anyone is denying that.

                     What is disingenuous is singling out Commie when you know as well as I do that they’re hardly the only members of this community. You’re deliberately including only part of the truth because you know people will interpret it differently to the full story.

                   • I’m just saying it’s obvious where Vivid’s primary influence comes from. If you want to map which groups your staff are most known for, it becomes even more obvious. Just because you joined UTW doesn’t make you any less Commie’s poster boy, for example.

                     Stop playing dumb; it’s pathetic.

                   • Vivid’s primary influence for me has been the work I’ve done for UTW, actually. I agree with their policies closest out of any group.

                     If I was to write out my personal philosophy though, I’d basically just put it as “do whatever makes sense and will cause the least amount of friction”. I believe there’s no point in setting restrictive overall group policies on honorifics, song styling, how to handle specific terminology or anything else when every show is different and will likely require a different approach. To that end, we adapt on a show-by-show basis according to whatever makes the most sense to the staff working on the show.

                     I also believe much more heavily in real-time collaboration between several editors on the script as it is written (for example, having one primary editor and one or more script QCs that leave comments on the script as they go through it, which are then applied by the editor on a second pass). Both these practices are pretty much in direct contradiction with Commie’s, and I’ve had several arguments in the past with herkz about the value (or lack thereof, in his opinion) of script QC.

                     On what grounds does Vivid appear influenced to you by Commie? Would you say these two C3bu episode 7 releases are anything alike? Because that certainly is what your opening paragraph implies.

                   • I don’t care about what your primary influence was or your secondary influence or however many influences you had was (and we’ll just pretend you didn’t spend years trying to be Dark_Sage lite). What matters is the majority of your staff are attached to Commie more than any other group. It’s not inaccurate to call Vivid Commie v2 for that reason.

                     Reality isn’t so bitter a pill to swallow; you’ve had worse things in your mouth anyway.

                   • >What matters is the majority of your staff are attached to Commie more than any other group.

                     Really? Did you interview them?

                     Or wait, are you saying political divisions are decided by public perception now? That my group is Commie v2 because you (or the general public) believe the staff to be most closely associated with it?

                     It’s almost like people are spreading a shallow prejudice instead of judging us on our merits.

                   • I suppose to get a perfect pulse on the situation, I would have to interview all of them, as well as each of their respective group leaders and all their co-subbers to be certain. I’d also need to be reasonably assured they’re being honest.

                     Or I could look at what the staff have done and how they’ve been presented by their groups as a more objective indicator. Get mad about it all you want, but unanimated is more Commie than IB, Futsuu is more Commie than UTW, and torchlight is more Commie than Underwater. I’ll give you that Aoi-chan and Vale have better group associations than Commie, but that’s just how things shake out. If you didn’t want to be known as Commie v2, maybe you shouldn’t have formed it.

                   • Yes, clearly I should have stuck with Commie forever instead of getting together the best people I knew to form a new group with new policies where we could put forth our best efforts together. Everyone is stuck with what they have, and nobody deserves a fresh start or the opportunity to be judged on their own merits instead of three years of drama and group baggage.

                     And naturally, it is out of the question to ask someone who claims to be an unbiased authority on fansubbing to take the high road and judge said group on their efforts instead of pandering to prejudice, sensationalism, and drama. Once again, I have expected too much of you, and I apologise.

                   • Oh, now we’re getting somewhere interesting. Please, tell me how exactly I’ve scored Vivid’s releases unfairly. Luckily, I provide point-by-point critiques in every review that are up for their own criticism. So perhaps you could tell me how my bias affects the rules of English itself.

                     I’m sure you’ll take me up on that.

                   • I believe I made it clear from the outset that my issue was with the statements you made in the opening paragraph to this review. You can’t just say whatever you like and then claim “but the review scores are fair so it’s all good”. There are people who take the actual words you write seriously as well.

                   • It’s an honest statement even if it pisses you off.

                     Anyway, it’s 3 AM here and I have a real job to get to into the morning, meaning I can’t play any longer tonight. Lucky for you, I’ll rephrase the intro paragraph due to nostalgia for when you weren’t such a cunt.

                     change log: branch of Commie -> Commie v2. Hope that made your day.

                   • Yes, maybe in those days you would have taken the high road out of common courtesy instead of begrudgingly making a meaningless change after a 3-hour argument. But you’re clearly not interested in that, so write whatever you like. As I said, I was obviously expecting too much from the start.

                   • I don’t see how it’s only an “illusion of choice” when you gave Vivid a better score and their release doesn’t suffer from your primary issue with Commie’s: the attempts at funny scriptwriting. It sounds like there’s a rather meaningful choice to be made there.

                     As I see it, you’ve generally given Commie releases a fair shake. I feel like they’ve gotten sloppier in recent seasons, and their lulzy edits have earned them detractors and low review scores. But that hasn’t been the case with Vivid. So what’s the point of playing up the connection between the two groups?

                   • It’s mostly for the people who are fed up with Commie’s trolling. It’s like going to one of these places http://i.imgur.com/SlcegaN.jpg and getting the Taco Bell because you’re protesting Pizza Hut. I’m just letting people know the reality of the situation.

                   • >I’m just letting people know the reality of the situation.

                     You mean your opinion of the situation, which a good review wouldn’t include anyway.

             • You know, D_S, you should probably remember this piece of advice you wrote a while back:

               I do wholeheartedly suggest you stop before you post and think to yourself “Does this comment make me sound like Kristen?”

               I mean, you’re doing this “I know your group better than you do” spiel, claiming how you “recruit based on talent” instead of “typical fansub methods” (whatever the hell they’re supposed to be?) and saying how “the usual suspects” would be a “burden” to your crew… It’s very much making you sound like Kristen. And as your own advice continues:

               If it does, you may wish to hold off until it doesn’t. Because it doesn’t particularly reflect well on the point you’re trying to make, and it gives off a bad impression to newer readers who may think comments like that are to be imitated rather than laughed at.

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               • Holy crap, this. I tried and failed to make the same point recently: Dark_Sage is an intelligent person capable of writing insightful and useful reviews. Why does he feel the need to undercut his credibility in this strange and unavailing quest to become a Cleon-like provocateur?

                 I’m genuinely baffled by this. If Sage’s motivation is attention, he’s already got it for his reviews. Internecine spats only damage the illusion of impartiality all reviewers require to be successful. If he wants to be internet famous, isn’t it better to be so as a respected critic than as a rankling caricaturist? If D_S doesn’t want to be a reviewer, what does he want to be?

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                 • Even Xythar didn’t have any beef with the scores Vivid got, probably because I don’t give a shit about group name when giving out scores and am remarkably consistent on a season-by-season basis.

                   No need for the jabs, Margaan.

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                   • I wasn’t trying to make any jabs or to accuse you of bias; I just wanted to resolve the baffling disjunction between the average caliber of your fansub reviews (which is excellent) and the average caliber of your discourse with other fansubbers (which causes me great distress).

                     The problem is that your tone in debate (as distinct from your tone in reviews) seems actually designed to trigger the backfire effect, making your opponents’ positions as well as your own ever more intractable. This suggests that you’re making an effort to divide your readership into an “us” and a “them”: people who will fervently support your positions, and people who will launch a knee-jerk attack upon anything you say no matter how valid. [i]This is why I compared you to Cleon, who may have been a hero or may have been a villain but who certainly operated demagogically by grounding his identity as a politician in the hatred of the nobility and of Sparta; I was not attempting to defame your character.[/i]

                     Regardless of your scores’ real impartiality, your readers (being fallible human beings) will judge your ability to discern the wheat from the chaff based on your overall behavior. If they see you in the comments constantly trading barbs with other fansubbers, they are forced to conclude that a) you are Fansubbing Jesus expelling the money changers from the Temple; that is, you are launching impassioned arguments against Those Hypocrites Who Are Wrong b) you allow yourself to be goaded into shouting matches and thus are not, in fact, an objective reviewer or c) you are enjoying the verbal fisticuffs and deliberately trolling your opponents, meaning that your reviews are liable to be trolls as well. Merely allowing b) and c) to be live options works against your goals as a critic. Worse, every time you make an insignificant mistake about something that doesn’t matter (like Commie’s internal politics), readers are more likely to assume that you’re capable of making an error of judgment in your reviews about something that does matter and thus are more likely to chose b) or c).

                     I’m 100% sure you’re insightful enough to know that you can’t win debates by arguing with people, so I can only assume that your initiative to match every angry insult with an equally angry insult (and sometimes, honest questions with angry insults) is a part of this politics of alienation. But if this is so… why? What do you stand to gain by it? Creating a readership that either loves you or hates you can be great business for a politician, an op-ed writer, or even an artist, but it’s irreconcilable to the purposes of a reviewer and critic.

                     In short, the Dark_Sage who writes quality reviews and the Dark_Sage who writes oft-hilarious vitriol cannot coexist as the same public identity, at least not in any way I can fathom. Might you be so kind as to express your darker purpose?

                     [i]Fuck, Margaan, way to totally undermine your own call-for-civilized-discourse-in-the-form-of-a-Socratic-question-except-you-actually-want-to-know-the-answer-to-the-question by running it out to nearly 500 words. If D_S actually answers a question phrased like this, he really is the Fansubbing Jesus you don’t deserve you stutteringly slow-minded sanctimoniously solipstic shit. May your upcoming public shaming be a lesson to all who would try to “make people… better.” Now go and reread the Wikipedia page on illusory superiority before you actually collapse into a black hole and kill everyone both on the Internet and off.[/i]

                   • Oh god, we’re getting into autobiography territory here. How the fuck can I answer the concisely? I guess I can’t, so lemme just take a part of it:

                     I’m not “trolling” in the sense you implied, since dishonesty is very bad for business. Nor do I consider the comments section a shouting match (in fact, I really fucking hate long, boring, back-and-forths like this post spawned; I can create more entertaining content with posts than comment drama). But I’m not going to sit here and smile as people lie to my dear readers. So sure, take it as me being the Fansubbing Jesus if you want. But don’t take that title too much to heart; I certainly can’t say I have much interest in being a martyr.

                   • http://puu.sh/4pDli.jpg

                   • I’d be perfectly happy with this response if the only recipients of your correction were those braggarts who committed acts of deliberate misrepresentation, but all too often dullards, the naïve, bombasts, recusants, and other relatively minor nuisances like myself find themselves the target of your special fury—as do those who have had run-ins with you before (but then, Jesus never instructed anyone to “forgive and forget,” although he does several times suggest that forgiveness is the high road).

                     Honestly, I think I’m just frustrated that not everyone in the anime reviewing biz is Ben Ettinger. He attracts a significantly different readership anyway (and doesn’t have to critique people who can actually reply); I shouldn’t fault you for failing to “rise above” the general level of fansubbing discourse, since doing so would most likely alienate 90% of your readership. Still, the drama is just exhausting, and I can’t help but feel that a good deal of it could be avoided if a slightly different tack were taken.

                     …He said on a site called Crymore.net.

         • Also, RHE does nothing these days except play Tera, so he doesn’t really have anything to do with anything. I’d ask why you feel compelled to comment on things you obviously know nothing about, but I guess then I’d be throwing this entire blog into question.

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           • Sorry, I was basing your group’s politics off our prior conversations on IRC. I guess things have changed over there in between just before you promised you’d never visit my site again and now.

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             • Much more than they’ve changed over here, that’s for sure.

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               • That’s a very broad comment. What’s your primary issue? That I’m still mean to fansubs? Should I branch out into manga? Shoes? Toothbrush brands?

                 Paint me a bold new direction for Crymore, Xythar. If you can do it without any bitter quips, I’ll give you a cookie.

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                 • No point. As far as I’m concerned, fansub reviews of this kind are for entertainment purposes only.

                   People can watch and form their own opinions about pretty much every aspect but the translation, especially this late in the game.

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                   • People could always watch anime and form opinions on their own. Unless I somehow overestimated my influence on all anime fans. Perhaps I’ve secretly been controlling everyone’s decision-making processes since 2010. If you could tell me just how I managed to do that, I’d love to know.

                     But of course, you’re right. There is absolutely nothing you could learn about anything on this site. I should really learn to point out mistakes in my reviews and offer corrections or even point out areas of quality. That would really make them useful, I think.

                   • The only thing this site can teach prospective fansubbers is how to fansub the way Dark_Sage likes. I’ve been down that road; it’s not very rewarding.

                   • I’m pretty simple to please. Sensible grammar and spelling practices combined with a natural-flowing script that doesn’t overextend itself or play it too safe along with moderately pleasing visuals is all it takes. I think it’s rather hard to disagree with that being the crux of what a good fansub is, though I’m sure you’ll find a way.

     • Eien is an NT mod now? Someone should probably let him know.

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       • My bad, I don’t keep track of Nyaa politics. I guess his sycophant levels were too low. You should give him some tips on how to boost them.

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     • But what about me, DS? You forgot to mention the token non-Commie subber T__T

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       • You weren’t on IRC at the time. I wasn’t going to include you and fnord, for example, because then Xythar would bitch about me specifically excluding other people due to rampant, raging bias. I thought I could avoid a three-hour ragefest this way. My judgment may not have been the best.

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3. Which commie do I get to get the best commie out of all my commies??

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   • Let’s be serious.

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     • Go make a website nerd

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   • It’s Commie all the way down. Flip a coin.

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     • #Drama

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       • And I really wanted to get another review out tonight. ;_;

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         • Dark_Sage please. Maybe, just maybe, you’re commenting back so that you don’t have to do it \o/.

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           • I’m almost out of snacks too. Try to move yourself and make more reviews for our entertainment.

             Lately, I’ve spent more hours here than on HBO. Be grateful.

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4. Damn, does anyone sane actually give a shit if Vivid’s a Commie v2 or not? Whatever classification criteria you use to make some kind of arbitrary distinction, it doesn’t affect the release quality.

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   • There are people who care, yes. I guess their opinions don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things, but it’s frustrating to see that kind of prejudice reinforced here.

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     • Key operator was “sane” there.

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5. Stealth Camouflage is a Metal Gear Solid reference. Some Stealth Boy gizmo is called that. It’s the anime’s reference, not mine.

   You sure hate fun, don’t you? I suppose it comes with the territory when you take yourself so seriously.

   As for the Vivid vs Commie discussion: You will no doubt admit you have no idea what goes on behind the curtain, not to mention inside people’s heads. All you can do is cross-reference some staff rolls. Don’t you think it takes a lot of hubris to judge something based on guesswork and conjecture?

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   • It’s Not Capitalized. http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Stealth_Camouflage

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     • I don’t care what that wiki does; spelling dictates that proper names are capitalized, and the item is called “Stealth Camouflage”.

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       • It’s not a proper noun, it’s a common thing in the Metal Gear universe. Or do you think “bandana” ought to be capitalized too?

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         • If the item and not the effect is referred to, then I don’t see how it’s not a proper noun.

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           • “Stealth Camouflage”, as in the device that makes “stealth camouflage” possible is not what your line is referring to.

             “What bedroom outfit hides a woman’s body in plain sight?”

             The device itself is not an outfit, but the effect can be seen as one (even though you have to stretch it here for the line to make sense). It is not a fucking suit we’re talking about. Get it now?

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             • It makes little sense to have the line refer to some contraption that makes you transparent, because it’s not an outfit.

               It makes even less sense to have it refer to an effect, because that’s not even a physical object.

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               • Then maybe you got the “outfit” bit wrong.

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                 • I don’t see how the literal meaning of impression vs effect is more elegant than what the subs say right now. Besides, there is this thing called editing which usually happens after the translator has handed something in. You might not be familiar with it.

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                   • I’m not sure what the point of that second sentence was. Are you trying to say that because the script was edited… that means you can ignore that one can’t wear a small device as an outfit? Fnord, let’s be serious.

                   • What? What’s givi—

                     No, never mind.

                     I heard confusing others stresses them out and shortens their lives. I’m loath to be convicted of murder.

                   • Yes, I am confused.

                     A capitalization issue really doesn’t matter in the long run, so I have little investment in keeping it as a highlighted issue, but I legitimately think we can work this one out.

                     Let’s just bring it back to the basics so I can wrap my mind around it:
                     1. I believe there’s enough wiggle room to capitalize “Stealth Camouflage” when used to describe the device.
                     2. I also believe there’s enough wiggle room to leave it in lowercase.
                     3. When used to describe the effect of the “Stealth Camouflage” item, I believe “stealth camouflage” should be in lowercase.

                     I don’t think those three will cause any problems.

                     4. I believe “What bedroom outfit hides a woman’s body in plain sight?”//”Stealth Camouflage.” doesn’t work because “Stealth Camouflage” as an item cannot be considered an outfit. Rather, “stealth camouflage” as the effect would be used here.

                     This is where I think the disagreement comes in. If so (or if not), let me know where the breaking point is.

                   • No, that’s basically it.

                     I don’t understand how you can possibly think relating an effect to a dress is better than relating a tool to a dress. The “Stealth camouflage” effect isn’t even a physical item. How can it be closer to a dress than a physical device?

                   • Well, you just need to interpret it not-so-literally. For example, “He wears that color well.” or “She’s just draped in style.” That’s the logic I’m approaching it with. You don’t need to physically wear something to “wear” it.

                     I don’t think it’s a perfect fit, but neither interpretation really is. Though I guess if this is really just about interpretation, there’s not much use in having it as a representative issue, so I’ll drop it from the review.

6. I never download commie releases thanks to previous experiences and these reviews but I don’t really care if Vivid are commie v2 or not as long as they are not doing retarded things.

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   • Let’s be serious

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7. I mostly come here for the comment drama, this post did not disappoint.

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8. Oh look, Commie staff in full damage control mode.

   Pathetic.

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9. The fails in OP/ED positioning happened because credits change and I forgot to fix the positioning for a couple episodes there. I’m a derp, etc.

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   • Oh, that explains it. Yeah, you’re not alone then. None of the groups fixed it.

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10. My friend showed me this http://puu.sh/4qDF5.jpg

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    • Commie Cuality.

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