101 thoughts on “Fansub Review: [FFF] Kyoukai no Kanata (Episode 02)”

1. Oh what, I thought this was an Original TL. Well then…

   Reply

2. Oh, cool, I’m in the copypasta, but anyways, guess we’ll see if the other groups fare better.

   Reply

3. Oh you’re in the zone D_S. Keep chugging that diesel and churn out more of these laudable reviews.

   Reply

4. >Why the fuck wouldn’t you use the term “barrier”?

   Probably because they say “cage”.

   >Except they don’t “catch” demons, they kill them.

   Except she said “captured”. And yes, she buys the actual creatures, not their remnants or whatever. What this actually implies is left as an exercise for the viewer.

   >“career” is very shitty word choice. Go with something like “task” or just rephrase the entire line. It’s more a burden or responsibility than something you’re gonna do for 50 years till you retire with an underperforming 401k.

   Except they specifically call it a 商売, which is trade, business, career, whatever. You could go with something like “dirty job”, I suppose.

   >Try “spirit” or something less loaded. Hell, I’d just go with fucking “youmu”.

   Really? The correct way to translate is not to translate? I suppose it’s better than translating wrong, but I feel translators should probably aim for loftier goals than romanising every word they don’t understand.

   Reply

   • >Xythar acting like he knows Japanese.

     1. Cage is shitty terminology. Use enclosure if you must, since “cage” has too much baggage associated with it in terms of readings and definitions. Stop acting like 1:1 is perfection, since that’s not even possible for any word.

     2. I don’t believe you. It’s contextually absurd for that to be the correct word choice.

     3. Trade, business, and career are three entirely different words. Did you forget to bring a dictionary all the way up your own ass? “career” is not the word to go with. “job” would suffice.

     4. What a shitty argument. You think groups that sub with honorifics don’t understand them? Youmu’s a tricky word as evidenced by the 30 different translations groups came up with for it. I’d rather get 100% of the word across than half-ass it with a “good try”.

     And what do you mean “correct way”? I never said there’s only one way to handle it. I just spoke aloud as to how I’d handle it if I were the editor in question. Groups can do whatever fits their ideals as long as it works somehow. “demons” didn’t work, so I called FFF out on it. That’s how these reviews go. Is literacy not taught in Australia or something?

     Reply

     • I found you a dictionary with the definition “task” for 商売 here.

       Reply

       • ‘sup, C to E.

         Reply

         • He’s a Hungarian J->E just like Vale.

           Reply

     • >>Xythar acting like he knows Japanese.

       That’s rich coming from you.

       >1. Cage is shitty terminology. Use enclosure if you must, since “cage” has too much baggage associated with it in terms of readings and definitions. Stop acting like 1:1 is perfection, since that’s not even possible for any word.

       Uh, what baggage?

       >2. I don’t believe you. It’s contextually absurd for that to be the correct word choice.

       Feel free to look up 掴かまいた妖夢 yourself then (the infinitive is 掴む) and report your findings.

       >4. What a shitty argument. You think groups that sub with honorifics don’t understand them? Youmu’s a tricky word as evidenced by the 30 different translations groups came up with for it. I’d rather get 100% of the word across than half-ass it with a “good try”.

       Except that just writing “youmu” is getting 0% of the word across.

       People know what honorifics mean because they’re a standard part of Japanese used all across anime. That isn’t the case here.

       Reply

       • *掴まいた妖夢. I type good.

         Reply

         • 捕まえた妖夢. Really good.

           Anyway, same meaning.

           Reply

           • Noted. I’ll edit the corrections in when I get back home. Currently on mobile and it’s really screwing up.

             Reply

       • Namely that a cage around something implies that it’s keeping things in more than keeping things out. More specifically, those things tend to be undesirable and are forcibly contained. This makes no sense in context.

         Reply

         • Well, the Japanese word used is one that’s used for a cage, pen, jail cell, etc, so I can only assume the usage is deliberate. In the LN, they make a specific point to define a cage as basically being like a barrier but stronger:

           “‘I told you to stop calling them that. I create cages, not barriers.’

           Apparently, extraordinarily strong interpose barriers – ones that weren’t even in the same league as ordinary barriers – were referred to as cages.”

           There’s also a point in the most recently translated chapter where they do use one to confine a creature. They’re supposed to be impenetrable barriers that don’t allow anything in or out. Whether the anime staff just appropriated the term and did what they please with it, I don’t know, but there’s definitely still a distinction.

           Reply

           • Oh you read a light novel translation? Good, then you can tell me whether or not the youmu die when they are killed.

             So for “cage” it’s just a stronger barrier? Then use wall or barricade or boundary. Hell, I’d even accept fold. Cage is a no-go.

             Reply

             • To be honest, I don’t remember. I don’t think the stones you see in the show even come up in the first couple of chapters, and overall the show deviates from the LN a lot. In the show, though, from what I remember they always just refer to the stones as “youmu” and never as something like “youmu’s remains”. I don’t think the word “kill” really comes up much either, usually something like “defeat” or “subjugate”.

               Hopefully we’ll find out later down the line.

               Reply

             • 妖夢石 (ようむせき)
               妖夢を消滅させると妖夢から落ちる石。大きさや形は様々で詳細も不明。
               一説では妖夢の核ではないかと言われている。
               異界士はこの石を鑑定後、換金し、報酬を得ている。

               Rather than “kill” it’s more like “extinguish”, if I read the “shoumetsu saseru” part correctly. The theory is that the stones are the core of the youmu.

               (the following is conjecture)
               It’s similar to [insert magical girl series] where the monsters aren’t real, but are caused by a jewel or card or some other plot item going out of control. That would explain why the stones are worth money: they can be used to power up magic or magic beings. It doesn’t explain where they’re from or why they run wild, but the big bad mentioned in this episode might hold some clues.

               Reply

             • Also, I’ll have to disagree with you on your second point – it’s not the translator or editor’s job to rewrite elements of the story to whatever they feel makes more sense. I’m pretty sure the concept of a ‘cage’ in Japanese is the same as it is in English, and the author made a conscious decision to use the word for ‘cage’ as opposed to the word for wall, barricade, boundary or anything else. I believe it would be remiss not to accurately convey that.

               Reply

               • It’s not an “element of the story”. You’re just arguing that because you heard a Japanese word that means “cage” that it is literally and immutably the only word anyone could possibly use, and very most likely the word given unto you by God.

                 Well, sorry to break the plot twist unto you this early, but I sure as hell did not tell you to 1:1 it and act like it’s perfect, because this deity don’t play by retardoland rules.

                 Reply

       • Breaking up replies due to lolmobile.

         I don’t doubt that what you think is right is one interpretation. I do doubt it’s the right one. For you to be right the show would be an unbearably shitty magical girl shoujo with no real consequences. I refuse to believe that.

         Reply

       • I’d TL note it. That’d be my preference since I don’t localize everything for the Saturday morning crowd. Groups can TL it if they want. I just have a problem with demon being the translation.

         Reply

       • “Except that just writing “youmu” is getting 0% of the word across.”

         Yes and no. It’s not quite as much a part of the average anime viewer’s lexicon as other terms like senpai or onee-san or what have you, but it’s common enough that it’s worth at least considering using the Japanese. It really depends on the audience you’re shooting for, I guess, but I’d prefer to read youmu untranslated than badly translated. I don’t think that demon strictly has to mean evil creatures (I mean, we have shows like Hataraku, Maou-sama! and Maoyuu Maou Yuusha with some pretty alright demons), but I don’t think it particularly fits in this case either.

         Cthuko ran into the same issue with Yozakura Quartet and at first translated it with beast, then daemon. A secondary sub track is provided with just youmu though, and I like that. They gave it their best shot, but for people who don’t like it (and I think beast was awful and daemon only slightly better), at least an alternative is available. It’s typically a tough word to get right, so I wouldn’t begrudge a group for not translating it. Some people won’t get it, but like I said it’s about the audience you’re going for. If you’re aiming to make it understandable for absolutely everyone, by all means translate it. There’s also a fair group of people with at least a little bit of knowledge (or are willing to learn) who don’t mind a few words untranslated here and there though, and there’s nothing wrong with targeting them with your release. And releasing two subtitle tracks with the default being translated is a nice compromise.

         Reply

         • >but it’s common enough
           Do you mean “youma”?

           Reply

           • No. And I don’t mean it’s incredibly common or anything, but it comes up enough that I wouldn’t dismiss the possibility of leaving it untranslated out of hand. I’m no fan of leaving things untranslated either, but sometimes the situation can warrant it; I don’t think that leaving it untranslated is necessarily “getting 0% of the word across.”

             And actually, come to think of it, it was youkai in Yozakura, not youmu. Similar issue, at any rate.

             Reply

             • Youmu is a made-up word that’s only used in KnK, so you’re probably thinking of something else.

               I think it’s important to translate it to get the connection with dreams across, especially since said connection actually comes up in conversation in episode 3.

               Reply

               • >Youmu is a made-up word

                 http://puu.sh/4SnDn.png
                 Say that to my face fucker, and not online.

                 Reply

               • I’ve only ever heard “Youmu” [妖夢] in the context of a character name (guess where from) which itself is derived from “Youyoumu” [妖々夢] wherein both supposedly translate to, more or less, “Ghostly Dream.”

                 Reply

                 • Well I could have sworn I’d heard it before, but if two people are telling I’m wrong then I probably am. *shrug*

                   Reply

                   • You’re thinking of youkai.

                   • You’re just giving a good reason for translating the term, since clearly if it had been left untranslated not only would you have got zero meaning out of it, it’d been negative since you’d have confused it with a different word!

                   • I take it you’ve never heard of tl notes.

                   • Have tl notes even been successfully used by a non-shit group anywhere in the past year or two?

                   • Yes. They only ever got a negative rep because groups would rely on them too much, causing ridiculous sentences. Light use has never been problematic.

                   • >2013
                     >TL notes

                   • >2013

                     >4Kids in charge of fansubs

                   • >2013
                     >calling yourself a fansubber when you don’t fansub

                     :^)

                   • Roll me your definition of fansubber, then.

                   • >using 4kids as an “argument”

                     Dark_Kristen pls.

                   • I can understand TL notes being used to explain something with some kind of deep cultural context behind it but youmu is literally just the “you” from youkai combined with “dream”. As long as you can combine ‘dream’ with something vaguely ghost or demon-y (like, I dunno, ‘shade’) you can pretty much convey the full meaning of the term.

                   • “dreamon”

                     thank me later

                   • Youmu is just a proper name for something and shouldn’t be translated. You can see it on the official site http://anime-kyokai.com/glossary/ and a translation on the wiki http://kyoukainokanata.wikia.com/wiki/Youmu

                     I still say just leave it as a term to stand on its own.

                   • It’s standard practice to translate proper names if they have relevant meaning to the story. You don’t see anyone advocating for the Spirit Hunter Association to be called the “Ikaishi Kyoukai” in the subs, for instance.

                     As a general rule of thumb, everything except character and place names should be translated, and those should be translated too if the meaning is relevant to the character or plot. There’s no hard and fast standard, however, and translators/editors are free to approach each term on a case-by-case basis. Generally, though, I believe terms should be translated unless the name is totally irrelevant or meaningless, because these are English subs.

                   • Best practices for name translation are entirely dependent on the series and the group doing it. For example, you would have issues coming up with perfect translations in shows like -monogatari and Shinsekai Yori. Though if you really disagree, thank god you weren’t on the scene in 2008 or people might accept Le Crab-chan as Senjou’s full and proper name.

                   • Wait, dream and demon…
                     Night terrors?

                   • The biggest problem “dreamshade” has, imho, is that it sounds like a My Little Pony name.

                     I’m not sure where I stand on this issue. I’m against translating terms like youkai, mononoke, or onmyouji, but prefer seeing bento, onigiri and “-sama” translated. I’m neutral on youmu.

                   • I think “dreamshade” sounds like a visually attractive but poisonous breed of tomato.

                   • I’m all ears for alternate suggestions, but just watch the conversation between Mitsuki’s mother and Exposition-kun towards the start of ep3 and tell me the “dream” part isn’t significant.

                   • So if I see the word “carbon” I should translate it into something that relates to cars and bon-bons right? Youmu is a proper name for a species just like carbon is the proper name for an element.

                   • Youmu is a made up word that describes a class of creature. Japanese people watching the show will understand it as a form of youma or youkai except related to dreams. It’s a word that is loaded with meaning. If you don’t want it to be translated at all, then that’s your own issue (and have fun losing meaning), but dreamshade is a perfect translation and I applaud whoever decided on it.

                     “Shadebusting” though… funny, but inappropriate for such a serious conversation.

                   • My point is, it is totally made up and not at all descriptive. They are also not monsters or demons or whatever other term we have in the English language because they are not inherently evil. Dreamshade also strongly implies non-physical.

                     Hell some of the characters are youmu or half youmu… is the kid half of a dream?

                   • “Night terrors,” fohfuu? Close, but no cigar.

                     Perhaps try “night-mare”, in the original sense of a demonic entity which causes feelings of suffocation in the sleeping? Or even use “nightes-mare,” the early English form, to distinguish it from its modern meaning.

                     One might call crystallized Youmu “mare stones,” but I doubt they serve here to ward against nightmares like mare stones do in English folklore.

                   • >So if I see the word “carbon” I should translate it into something that relates to cars and bon-bons right?

                     No, if you saw the word “carbon” and you were translating into Japanese, you would translate to 炭素, which is the Japanese word for carbon. In this case carbon has an obvious meaning and should be translated as such.

                     >Dreamshade also strongly implies non-physical.

                     Not necessarily, and it should be obvious from the show that they are not. We debated about this for like 2 weeks prior to the first episode airing and that was the best we could come up with that got the idea across, compounded well with other words (by reducing it to the single-syllable ‘shade’) and wasn’t horribly long or awkward. We obviously used “half-shade” for Akihito.

                     Like I said, there is a conversation at the start of episode 3 where they talk about how dreamshades are the darkness in people’s dreams. The “dream” connection absolutely is significant.

                   • >character and location names should be translated
                     Sasuga commie editor

                   • “Well, Takashi’s a pretty common name, so let’s translate his name as Bill.”

                   • I like how the night-mare variant sounds.

                   • You think “dreamshade” sounds like something from My Little Pony and “night-mare” doesn’t?

                   • Gay scale (from gay to super gay):
                     Night
                     Shade
                     Mare
                     Dream

                   • +1 for ‘dreamshade’. It’s my favourite of the translations of ‘youmu’ that I’ve seen. The feeling of both words is very similar to me.

                   • reminder that there is a pony literally named Nightmare Moon

                     how I know this, I could not tell you

                   • @Xythar: Most ponies I’ve heard of are called things like Twilight Sparkle and Rainbow Dash, rather than horse puns. Dream Shade fits right in.

                     Dream is just, so, so, pink.

                   • I dunno, I associate “dream” with Neil Gaiman’s Sandman, so if I had to choose a color for the word I’d go with black.

                     I think it all depends on what you spend most of your time consuming.

                   • “Dream” is pink? maybe if you spend your nights dreaming about ponies…

                   • @Enamelthyst Hopefully you also fancy Death. She’s peachy.

                   • >these terrible attempts at trolling

                     Please. You know who you are.

                   • While I can appreciate the fact that Youmu wouldn’t get anything across with regard to its nuances, it would be clearly evident from the first episode that Youmu = a type of creature that’s specific to this show.

                     It’s just like Chupacabra. I don’t see the need to translate it as Goat Sucker to get across the fact that it’s a monster of some kind.

     • It makes me cringe somewhat to sound like I’m agreeing with Xythar, but “career” makes sense considering she’s saying it’s not something you’d -want- to do with your life. It also requires special skills and training to hunt demons. Like learning prayers and how to use a cross and holy water…

       Reply

       • That’s not really the difference between a career and a job. A career has a lifelong meaning to it. Skills don’t really factor into the difference beyond the idea that most people consider careers to require more skills than jobs.

         Reply

         • Well, it seems like the kind of job that people do for all their lives, and then their descendants keep doing the same job until the family line dies out. That’s the feeling I get from the setting.

           … Not to mention the fact that these people with special powers seem to attract monsters just by existing, so they can’t really avoid the job as long as they are qualified for it.

           Reply

           • It’s a task, it’s a duty, but it’s not what they would primarily identify as their life’s work. The teacher likely identifies as a teacher and if you asked her what her future goals are, it would be tenure rather than stabbing a mummy wrap.

             Some may see it as a career sure but you absolutely can’t jump to that conclusion for everyone.

             Reply

5. D for Drunk

   Reply

6. @about 17:07 in ep3 there is an announcement: “…those able to set barriers or cages…”, so unless the tl is really off it seems these are two different abilities.

   Reply

7. Fucking weebs thinking you know Japanese do you guys think you’re Arashi?

   Reply

8. Because “You’re a low-down player, Senpai!” is such a good edit, right?
   Seriously, for someone constantly bitching about what a normal person would say in conversation, that’s pretty bad. Do you mean bottom-feeder or something?

   Reply

   • No, that line is perfect for a ditzy ditz. The fuck are you on?

     Reply

     • Who the fuck says “low-down player”, D_S? Seriously. If anyone would say it, I certainly wouldn’t have said it was a ditz.

       Reply

       • https://www.google.com/search?q=low-down
         https://www.google.com/search?q=%22low-down+player%22

         Fuck off a cliff and die.

         Reply

         • “Low-down” is fine. It’s not something that I’d imagine a high-school doofus girl would use, but it’s acceptable.
           But, as you’d have seen if you’d glanced at your “low-down player” Google search, no-one uses low-down player. All you gave me was a million players of things called “low-down”.
           Try again.

           Reply

           • >He was nothing but another low down player who preyed on women’s loneliness

             Fifth result. Again, please die. I have no use for the illiterate.

             Reply

             • Nah, I agree with fohfuu. Low-down player sounds horrible and doesn’t fit the character.

               Reply

               • You’re writing from Namibia and he’s writing from the UK. Wanna guess how much your opinions on English matter to me?

                 Reply

                 • Regardless of whether or not it fits the character, I think the main reason that people find the combination a bit off (or at least the reason I find it a bit off) is because it’s combining two dialects into one phrase.

                   Low-down is an adjective most often associated with southern or “country” dialects.

                   Player, meanwhile, is more typically associated with urban/hip hop/Ebonics (I realize I’m combining a lot there, but I’m just trying to cover my bases).

                   So when the two are combined like this, it sounds… odd.

                   Reply

                   • I gave you 41,000 examples of it being combined like that. Low-down is not “southern” or “country”. The reason they don’t like it (and I’m not sure what your excuse is) is because it’s US slang.

                     There’s nothing unique about the words that would necessitate confusion over their use. Don’t tell me you’ve really never heard someone use “player” who wasn’t black or a wigger.

                   • Most of those examples don’t use “low-down player” as that type of insult though. A lot of them link to sports or music applications. The ones that use the expression as you describe are fewer (and browsing the first few pages shows me that a lot of the links go back to crymore anyway).

                     I’m not implying that the combination is never used, I’m just saying it’s not used that often.

                     And I seldom hear “low-down” used outside southern/country dialect. Not saying that other people can’t use it (because that would be stupid), but I can very easily say that when I think “low-down,” I think “country.”

                     As for player, of course it’s modern slang that everyone uses. A lot of modern slang comes from hip-hop. I wasn’t trying to imply that “player” was some obscure word only used by black people. I was just trying to clearly separate the two slang expressions.

                   • Then use “no-good” or something. I don’t give a fuck. I’m not changing my suggestion up to kowtow to your limited vocabulary though.

                   • I don’t really want to get embroiled in this discussion, but google isn’t reliable when it comes to those search result estimates. Try and sift through the actual results. I’m getting 21 results instead of 47,500, but it might be different for you.

                   • “Limited vocabulary”? The fuck? At what point did I ever give you the impression that I don’t know what “low-down” or “player” mean? Jesus Christ, I was just trying to propose a reason why people might think that particular pairing was odd.

                   • The reason I don’t like it is because it doesn’t sound like something a high school girl would say, let alone a stupid Japanese one.

                 • Dark_Sage: master of fallacies.

                   Reply

                   • That’d be a cute point if that was the core of my argument. Unfortunately for you, it would be valid anyway, since their geographic location necessarily informs their understanding of American slang.

                   • You know, it’s funny that you insist on translating certain Japanese words everyone knows (not that I disagree on most of them), but then turn around and propose barely-used Southern US slang.

                     I’ve heard of ‘low-down’. I’ve heard of ‘player’ too, of course, but I can’t for the life of me figure out what a ‘low-down player’ is supposed to be.

                   • Low-down is an adjective, player is a noun. Put the two together. I think even someone like you can figure this one out.

                     And really? Which words do I insist upon being translated? I’d love to hear someone explain my localization demands to me, because I don’t believe I’ve ever talked at length about my preferences.

                   • It comes off as a fallacy when you spend half your reviews picking over particular phrases which are barely contestable – complaining about “generic phrases”, for example.

                     Basically, if “low-down player” was a good phrase, there wouldn’t be so many people who didn’t understand it (inb4 you guys are just dumb)

                   • Well, it’s not really very surprising so few people understand it when there’s a whopping 21 mentions on Google, three of which lead to crymore.net and one to a Twilight fanfic.

                   • What, no movie buffs here? “Low-down player” sounds wrong because it needs another adjective. Shane‘s famous “…you’re a low-down Yankee liar” might be adapted as “You’re a low-down geeky player.”

                     Shane Classic Gunfight – YouTube

                     Regardless, Akihito doesn’t have to be (male) chauvinist, or misogynist, pig. He could simply be a lecherous philogynist pig, a post-feminist Don Juan. Although, calling Akihito a “pig” after cow and pig appraisal is mentioned might incorrectly imply that Mirai is calling Akihito subhuman.

9. So UTW for this show or what?

   Reply

   • Why not Mezashite?

     Reply

     • Mezashite more like mega shitty

       Reply

       • Great constructive feedback.

         Reply

10. I have a feeling that they call the stone’s youmu for the same reason they call bottled poe in zelda “poe”. Further evidence is that the capture the youmu, not kill them. It’s probably going to become apparent that they’re not actually dead, or something like that. If so, what do you expect the TL to say? “rock mode youmu”?

    Reply

    • Sooo stealing “rock-mode youmu”.

      Reply

      • No. And damn them, if they want to call it 妖夢石, then fucking call it that in the show. I hate when they leave out information for no apparent reason.

        Reply