Archives: gg’s JoJo is supposed to be period, not funny

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This post was written by Dark_Sage. He is Dark_Sage.

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gg’s version of JoJo is intended to be neither a “troll” nor “funny”. Here, have some logs. Minimal drama; this is merely intended to get across the translator’s intent for the subs, which apparently nobody fucking got.

Archives note: This post was intended to be posted in December of 2012. If you don’t remember gg’s Jojo and if you don’t care about IRC logs, back out now. No reason to waste your time. As an archives post, I didn’t consider it up to my standards, so I never released it. …until now. When I felt too lazy to actually write something of worth.

 

Backstory: I wrote a review of gg’s JoJo where I called the release complete shit (I don’t think 4chan appreciated that, www).

Fast forward a few weeks and someone on IRC linked me to gg’s episode 11 release post where the TL was responding to people in the comments. Since I’m the embodiment of pure class, I took the opportunity to start a possible discourse.

talk

He replied,

I devote hours upon hours of study and research. Even as a native American-English speaker, it takes a lot to ensure that every delivery is resoundingly suave and smooth. You’re welcome to see for yourself, just how much effort it actually takes.

which I took to mean we should have a conversation on IRC.

Note: If you want the full, 2-hour log of a conversation between two English nerds, I included that at the bottom of the article. But honestly, it’s boring and too fucking long (8 pages in Microsoft Word). Read it if you want though.

 

Session Start: Sun Dec 16 01:14:27 2012
Session Ident: Durian
<Dark_Sage> I get that you wanna make your subs interesting. Fine. But until a number of people convinced me otherwise, the poor quality of the English in your translations had me absolutely convinced you were trolling. I don’t understand how it’s possible for a native English speaker to fuck up as badly as you have in JoJo.
<Dark_Sage> Your subs are marked by a clear misunderstanding of the language you’re working with. It’s insane.
<Durian> Well, you’re entitled to your own opinion, and I will not sway you to my aesthetics.
<Durian> But I can at least ensure you that my methods have a little something called “syntax” backing my translations.
<Durian> I don’t expect you to know what “syntax” I refer to, especially if your field of study is not Linguistics.

It was around this point I knew I was in for a long conversation.

<Dark_Sage> What, your focus on alliterating every line you can? It’s an interesting experiment, but you need to understand English at a basic level before you can succeed at using such literary tools effectively.
<Durian> My alliteration is sound.
<Dark_Sage> You alliterate the same base words with each other.
<Durian> Maybe you thought “regrettably regrettable” was just too hammy?
<Durian> It defined the speaker’s attitude for that moment: apathetic.
<Durian> He did not care for the girl’s company any longer, and although he didn’t state it overtly, his voice eminanted his emotions.

What? Okay, whatever, this isn’t something I particularly want to argue over. Moving on.

<Dark_Sage> Since you’ve read my review, I’m fairly certain you can agree the majority of my criticisms were pointed at areas you objectively screwed up on.
<Durian> Also, I take responsibility in admitting that I was incapable of mending my mistakes my first drafts.
<Dark_Sage> I don’t know if you can call a release a first draft
<Durian> To each his own.

<Durian> To each his own.

<Durian> What you can take away from this conversation is that I am unorthodox in my localizations, but I have an academic background that enables me to do so. It’s not everybody’s cup of tea, but I try to encapsulate my vision of setting, speech, and language into subtitles.
<Durian> Without the education to back my claims, I’d be blowing smoke out of my ass.
<Dark_Sage> I don’t think one needs an education in linguistics to talk about alliteration.
<Durian> The whole package, not just the alliteration.
<Dark_Sage> Did you do anything else that was interesting with your releases? I’m asking honestly because I was so distracted by the typos and grammar fuck-ups that I wasn’t able to enjoy them for whatever you intended them to be.
<Durian> The ‘Mademoiselle’ mishap occurred because my word processor couldn’t capture the other two misspellings.
<Durian> I attempted to keep the characters faithful to their settings.
<Dark_Sage> Well that’s a given

Oh god, if only I knew.

<Durian> No, that’s not a given.
<Durian> Look at all the subtitles we get these days.
<Dark_Sage> I don’t particularly think the fansub scene is doing a poor job at conveying character through subtitles.
<Durian> Before our release, who attempted to keep the Victorian setting Victorian? Or the English British?
<Dark_Sage> In JoJo?
<Durian> Yes.
<Durian> In works set in the Warring States or other non-Modern settings, how faithful were the translations to the setting?
<Dark_Sage> I would say MMM kept what you would consider “faithful” to the settings.
<Dark_Sage> Nutbladder went in a completely different direction, but I enjoyed that translation for what it was as well.
<Durian> An utter word-for-word from the existing scanlation?
<Dark_Sage> lol, they did that?
<Dark_Sage> I thought it was an interesting localization, but it wasn’t my favorite release.
<Durian> Especially for “fan” lines.
<Durian> Speedwagon cooly withdraws.
<Durian> I used “Speedwagon serenely skedaddles.”

Cue us arguing over this line for thirty fucking minutes.

Highlights of the conversation:

<Durian> Third-person is common in literature.
<Durian> It is unavoidable.
<Dark_Sage> Fucking Japan.

And that’s it. Let’s jump in at the end of the convo.

<Durian> If “shimmy” didn’t have a completely different contextual usage, I might have considered using it.
<Durian> So even though it rolls off the tongue even better than “skedaddles,” it pertains to dance.
<Dark_Sage> Your devotion to alliteration severely limits your vocabulary choices
<Dark_Sage> I wouldn’t say “shimmy” or “skedaddle” is appropriate
<Durian> It’s not the alliteration that limits the vocabulary, it’s the era.
<Dark_Sage> You can’t honestly expect me to believe you limited your vocabulary to that which was only available in the 1920s or whenever it took place.
<Durian> I would’ve loved to use “splits,” but that didn’t gain the meaning of “retreating” until much later.
<Durian> 1888.

Pause. Absorb.

<Durian> This time, I have a much wider range of vocabulary to use, until 1939.
<Dark_Sage> There is absolutely no way you were translating with an 1888 dictionary at your side
<Durian> The Oxford Dictionary is a lovely resource.
<Durian> It gives me the earliest documentation of a word’s usage and its meanings.

Oh god. (Heads up, this next bit is lengthy.)

<Dark_Sage> You did that with every word in your translation? Well that’s commendable, though again I don’t find your translation decisions objectively superior to others’
<Durian> And that is fine.
<Durian> I don’t expect the same devotion from every translator.
<Durian> I am my own person, and I have my own methods about me.
<Dark_Sage> Well you still seem to think yours is better, from your use of “devotion”
<Durian> Devotion towards working towards the best interpretation.
<Durian> Since mine has critics, it is obviously not the best.
<Dark_Sage> Every translation has critics
<Durian> And I invite dialog, which is why we’re still talking right now.
<Durian> On that note, “gee whilikers” originated from Britain.
<Durian> In the early 19th century.
<Durian> As a term for disparagement, much along the lines of other minced oaths, such as “Good God.”
<Dark_Sage> Fair enough, but then you’re being willfully ignorant of its meaning in present-day English and how present-day viewers would interpret it
<Dark_Sage> It sounds like something from Leave it to Beaver.
<Durian> But remember the setting, the viewers are watching set in the 19th Century.
<Durian> The meaning in the 19th Century is obsolete in the 21st Century.
<Durian> “Naught” is now an obsolete form of “not.”
<Dark_Sage> The meaning of naught is retained. People still know what it is.
<Durian> However, when it was used, it can mean either “nothing” or “not.”
<Durian> Today, its an antiquated term for “nothing.”
<Durian> Immersion is very important for a target audience.
<Dark_Sage> I don’t think your target audience is the audience you’ve found, just as an aside
<Durian> Otherwise, you’ll end up with a unimmersive catastrophe of a movie, such as Uwe Boll’s Dungeons and Dragons.
<Dark_Sage> I don’t think comparing every translation but yours to Dungeons and Dragons is fair.
<Durian> I was not.
<Durian> I was emphasizing the importance of immersion.
<Dark_Sage> You continue to insist that your translation style is the best, based on the qualifications you yourself are setting.
<Durian> Am I being unreasonable, if not unrealistic, to do so?
<Durian> I know there are people who appreciate what I am doing, not for the alliteration, but for the immersion.
<Dark_Sage> I think you are. Certainly I understand your argument that immersion in the period is important. But I don’t think that gives your translation an innate superiority over what others are doing.
<Durian> Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and I am not insinuating that my style is the best.
<Dark_Sage> It honestly seems that you are to me.
<Durian> It is flawed, because I have not done everything that I could to make it even more faithful.
<Durian> I have not studied the scriptures of Queen Victoria’s era, rellished in the plays of Shakespeare, or delved into the tomes of the Magna Carta.
<Dark_Sage> See, there you go again “It’s not the best because it’s not the most faithful.” but since it’s clear that you’re trying harder than the others to be “faithful”, yours will rise to the top.
<Dark_Sage> But that’s not the only definition of quality.
<Durian> I’ll agree that the most fundamental thing is to take the audience into consideration, before everything.
<Dark_Sage> I think the audience you found thinks your subs are more funny than immersive.
<Durian> The audience in question is not my main target.
<Durian> You could say there’s a divide.
<Dark_Sage> That’s fair.
<Dark_Sage> I think the audience you’re looking for generally went over to MMM
<Dark_Sage> Though that’s not really your fault.
<Durian> From the few screens I saw, I wasn’t ecstatic.
<Dark_Sage> They have issues, yeah. Oldsub style doesn’t work so well these days.
<Durian> However, regarding my attitude towards other translations, yes, I would love to be the best.
<Dark_Sage> That’s fine. Admirable, even. I just don’t think applying objectivity to translation style differences is particularly something that we can do.
<Durian> I am working towards that goal, but it may never be reached in my lifetime.
<Durian> You’re telling me to come down to earth, then?
<Dark_Sage> Meet me halfway at least. Nothing wrong with ambition, but reality should still factor in.
<Durian> Do you understand what I’ve been trying to achieve, though?
<Dark_Sage> I understand your ideals, yes.
<Durian> How would you go about an objective translation style? Would it be strange to assume you have an example?
<Dark_Sage> I don’t believe there’s an universally superior translation style, at least not in a detailed fashion.
<Durian> Then let’s limit it to fansubs.
<Durian> Is there any group that currently meets your criteria?
<Dark_Sage> No, and I don’t think there ever will be. Because while I can enjoy one translation style more than another, I would think the opposite could be true of another person. And who am I to say their enjoyment is inferior to my own?
<Dark_Sage> Some people prefer to be immersed in period language. Others want it updated to common tongue.
<Dark_Sage> Who is objectively right? I don’t think you could say either is.
<Durian> Then it’s a good thing there are groups to choose from.
<Durian> I’m glad we had this conversation.
<Dark_Sage> Same here. I love discussions like these.
<Durian> Even though I will continue to refine my skills and vision, I am glad there are alternatives for the viewers to choose from.
<Durian> I am trying to usher a new standard, and influence others from my work on this, and future shows.
<Durian> I have illusions of grandeur, but if I can influence even one person with my ideals, then I will know my deeds were not for naught.
<Dark_Sage> Hm…
<Dark_Sage> If you wanna write a post about your translation ideals, I don’t mind offering ya a platform to do so on Crymore. I may not necessarily agree 100% with what you’re saying, but I do think it’s interesting and I’d bet others will too.
<Durian> I appreciate the offer, but I must decline :)
<Durian> I was never gifted in the blogosphere… nor was I very persuasive, unless in debates such as the one we just had.
<Durian> If you want though, you are free to summarize our discussions.
<Durian> Just keep it all in context ;)
<Dark_Sage> Heh, I feel it would be difficult for me to appropriately convey your ideals (though I may do so sometime)
<Durian> You could call me a loon for all I care, just so long as you present evidence of my looniness.
<Dark_Sage> I would only do so for entertainment purposes because your ideals are valid (though again I don’t necessarily agree with their objective superiority)
<Durian> Heheh.

You can consider the majority of the conversation done by here. The next bit is the bonus round.

<Durian> I would like it, however, if you could acknowledge that I am not completely bereft of knowledge in English.
<Dark_Sage> It’s just… you need a good editor if you’re not gonna do second-passes on your TL
<Durian> I tried, today especially, but I came home too late.
<Dark_Sage> I think gg has issues with editors is the main thing. What, koda and Xythar are the only good ones? And Xythar takes like 3 hours.
<Durian> Koda has faith in my efforts, which is why she doesn’t change very much.
<Dark_Sage> Oh, she edited JoJo?
<Durian> It’s more of a skim than a full edit.

You’re telling me.

<Durian> So whenever I find my own faults, I take it very personally that I’ve failed her faith.
<Durian> Everything will receive an eventual reissue.
<Dark_Sage> From what I saw it was a very light skim because I think we can both agree most of what I found was objectively incorrect English
<Durian> If you don’t mind me asking, which line would that be?\
<Durian> The most memorable.
<Dark_Sage> You spelling Mademoiselle differently three times is most memorable.
<Durian> That was my error for thinking that I spelled the same word incorrectly once, when it was actually three times.
<Durian> MS Word is rather ridiculous when it comes to finding some errors.
<Dark_Sage> Bad alliterations, incorrect tenses, inaccurate word choice, …
<Dark_Sage> Lines like “Y-You are demon”
<Dark_Sage> More tense issues, issues with pluralization
<Dark_Sage> Incorrect capitalization
<Dark_Sage> General incorrectness, possibly relating to tense misunderstandings
<Dark_Sage> typos
<Durian> Missing indicators, typos, and grammatical errors were addressed.
<Durian> Don’t worry, I know how terrible “y-you are demon”
<Durian> sounds without an “a.”
<Dark_Sage> Just saying it deserved an editor.
<Dark_Sage> Maybe someone who graduated from college this time.
<Durian> I am that editor, when I can have the script timed before release.
<Dark_Sage> Well, I personally believe that the editor and TL should be different people. A fresh face to a script can sometimes make all the difference.
<Dark_Sage> Someone pointing out things that you didn’t notice in the first place.
<Dark_Sage> And no, I’m not volunteering. :P
<Dark_Sage> Though I understand you’re only working with what you’ve got. gg’s specialty is not editors.
<Durian> Unfortunately… for my style, there are very few who could edit my lines, aside from catching the errors of episode 8.
<Durian> I only know one person in the whole fansubbing world that could possibly edit Victorian English, but they were not available.
<Durian> However, for basic omissions, my eyes may suffice.
<Dark_Sage> I don’t think you’re giving today’s editors enough credit. But fair enough. At least a decent QC with a QC report.
<Durian> The only editor I can ever trust is another native English speaker who maintains native proficiency in Japanese, unless there are editors who would understand my ideals from seeing one line.
<Durian> I only know three, and they’re all becoming doctors in their own fields.
<Dark_Sage> I thought you trusted koda
<Durian> They all left fansubbing for better pastures a long time ago.
<Durian> She’s my sis.
<Durian> Not literally, but in spirit.
<Dark_Sage> Which overrides your basic qualifications?
<Durian> She has faith in my work, which is why she only skims through it.
<Dark_Sage> And you’ve seen how well that ends.
<Durian> Again, I am responsible for my own shortcomings.
<Dark_Sage> Well all right, whatever gets ya off.
<Durian> I’ll try to interject before it reaches brief editing, so I can have my pass.
<Durian> That didn’t work today, because I was out at the time it occured.
<Dark_Sage> Don’t need to explain it to me. I wait for Commie’s version. :P
<Durian> So long as we have an understanding.
<Durian> Have a pleasant day.
<Dark_Sage> I shall!
<Dark_Sage> And you as well.
<Durian> Good night.
<Dark_Sage> \quit naito
Session Close: Sun Dec 16 03:06:35 2012

Well, did reading that make you feel fulfilled? No? Then there’s a reason it’s an Archives post.

 

Full Logs

Spoiler for
Session Start: Sun Dec 16 01:14:27 2012
Session Ident: Durian
01[01:14] <Dark_Sage> I get that you wanna make your subs interesting. Fine. But until a number of people convinced me otherwise, the poor quality of the English in your translations had me absolutely convinced you were trolling. I don’t understand how it’s possible for a native English speaker to fuck up as badly as you have in JoJo.
01[01:14] <Dark_Sage> Your subs are marked by a clear misunderstanding of the language you’re working with. It’s insane.
[01:15] <Durian> So you were incapable of defining your own opinion?
01[01:15] <Dark_Sage> Hmm?
[01:15] <Durian> You needed the word of other people to form your opinion, is what I understood.
01[01:16] <Dark_Sage> I didn’t believe your subs weren’t trollsubs until a bunch of other people convinced me you were sincere in your subbing efforts. Yes, that is correct.
01[01:16] <Dark_Sage> Were they right to sway me so?
[01:16] <Durian> That’s unfortunate.
[01:17] <Durian> Well, you’re entitled to your own opinion, and I will not sway you to my aesthetics.
[01:18] <Durian> But I can at least ensure you that my methods have a little something called “syntax” backing my translations.
[01:19] <Durian> I don’t expect you to know what “syntax” I refer to, especially if your field of study is not Linguistics.
01[01:19] <Dark_Sage> What, your focus on alliterating every line you can? It’s an interesting experiment, but you need to understand English at a basic level before you can succeed at using such literary tools effectively.
[01:19] <Durian> My alliteration is sound.
01[01:20] <Dark_Sage> You alliterate the same base words with each other.
[01:20] <Durian> Maybe you thought “regrettably regrettable” was just too hammy?
[01:20] <Durian> It defined the speaker’s attitude for that moment: apathetic.
01[01:21] <Dark_Sage> I don’t see how that defines the speaker’s attitude, but all right. That’s fine.
[01:21] <Durian> He did not care for the girl’s company any longer, and although he didn’t state it overtly, his voice eminanted his emotions.
01[01:22] <Dark_Sage> Since you’ve read my review, I’m fairly certain you can agree the majority of my criticisms were pointed at areas you objectively screwed up on.
[01:22] <Durian> Try making subtitles sometimes. Something will definitely click if you’re devoted enough.
01[01:22] <Dark_Sage> I’ve been subbing for five years bro.
[01:23] <Durian> Nine.
[01:23] <Durian> Years doesn’t really matter/
[01:24] <Durian> Also, I take responsibility in admitting that I was incapable of mending my mistakes my first drafts.
01[01:24] <Dark_Sage> I don’t know if you can call a release a first draft
[01:24] <Durian> The only time I get to see the subtitles is when they’re released.
[01:24] <Durian> To each his own.
01[01:25] <Dark_Sage> What’s the release process for JoJo then, if you don’t get to see how they look on-screen?
01[01:25] <Dark_Sage> TL -> Time – > Typeset -> Release?
[01:26] <Durian> TL + Edit -> Time -> Typeset -> Brief Edit -> Release
[01:27] <Durian> The brief edit is not mine to do.
01[01:27] <Dark_Sage> Oh, then it was inaccurate of me to heap all the blame on you. I apologize; I thought you were the only person on the script.
[01:27] <Durian> It is essentially my script.
[01:28] <Durian> Rarely does anything go unchanged, so you weren’t entirely inaccurate.
[01:29] <Durian> I’m just terrible at reviewing my work in .txt form, rather than in .ass.
01[01:29] <Dark_Sage> Still, the editor shares some blame. The release would have been fine (though not particularly my style) if the English were perfect and you kept the same alliteration in there. Though I would have liked to see more assonation, to keep up with the theme.
[01:30] <Durian> Assonance is a trick pony.
01[01:30] <Dark_Sage> Fair enough. That’s generally why an extra set of eyes is useful — hard to catch your own mistakes.
01[01:30] <Dark_Sage> Well, that’s why you combine assonance with other literary devices
[01:32] <Durian> What you can take away from this conversation is that I am unorthodox in my localizations, but I have an academic background that enables me to do so. It’s not everybody’s cup of tea, but I try to encapsulate my vision of setting, speech, and language into subtitles.
[01:33] <Durian> Without the education to back my claims, I’d be blowing smoke out of my ass.
01[01:33] <Dark_Sage> I don’t think one needs an education in linguistics to talk about alliteration.
[01:34] <Durian> The whole package, not just the alliteration.
01[01:34] <Dark_Sage> Did you do anything else that was interesting with your releases? I’m asking honestly because I was so distracted by the typos and grammar fuck-ups that I wasn’t able to enjoy them for whatever you intended them to be.
[01:35] <Durian> I attempted to keep the characters faithful to their settings.
01[01:35] <Dark_Sage> Well that’s a given <_<
[01:36] <Durian> The ‘Mademoiselle’ mishap occurred because my word processor couldn’t capture the other two misspellings.
[01:36] <Durian> No, that’s not a given.
[01:36] <Durian> Look at all the subtitles we get these days.
01[01:37] <Dark_Sage> I don’t particularly think the fansub scene is doing a poor job at conveying character through subtitles.
[01:37] <Durian> Before our release, who attempted to keep the Victorian setting Victorian? Or the English British?
01[01:37] <Dark_Sage> In JoJo?
[01:37] <Durian> Yes.
01[01:37] <Dark_Sage> One sec, lemme check my notes.
[01:38] <Durian> In works set in the Warring States or other non-Modern settings, how faithful were the translations to the setting?
01[01:38] <Dark_Sage> I would say MMM kept what you would consider “faithful” to the settings.
01[01:39] <Dark_Sage> Nutbladder went in a completely different direction, but I enjoyed that translation for what it was as well.
[01:39] <Durian> An utter word-for-word from the existing scanlation?
01[01:40] <Dark_Sage> I guess you’d be someone who argues that Shakespeare translations should always have olde English?
01[01:40] <Dark_Sage> What, MMM?
[01:40] <Durian> Nutbladder.
01[01:40] <Dark_Sage> lol, they did that?
01[01:40] <Dark_Sage> I thought it was an interesting localization, but it wasn’t my favorite release.
[01:40] <Durian> Especially for “fan” lines.
01[01:41] <Dark_Sage> Like where they threw in memes and such?
[01:41] <Durian> Speedwagon cooly withdraws.
[01:41] <Durian> I used “Speedwagon serenely skedaddles.”
01[01:41] <Dark_Sage> heh
01[01:42] <Dark_Sage> I think both styles of translation have their merits… and their own specific issues.
[01:43] <Durian> Why? Because he’s contextually in-tune to the situation he was in, and although he wanted to keep Jonathan company, he acquiesced to the maid. So although bitter, he kept his pride by not barging in, and made a graceful exit.”
01[01:44] <Dark_Sage> I don’t see how “Speedwagon cooly withdraws.” is fundamentally different (or worse) than your line.
[01:44] <Durian> What does “Speedwagon cooly withdraws” do for you, besides be literal, and devoid of thought.”
01[01:45] <Dark_Sage> It’s pretty much the same line, honestly. All you did was alliterate it
[01:46] <Durian> The line itself is grammatically sound, but does it sound natural? Something that you’d ever hear in real life? Not like my line is any different, but it rolls off the tongue much easier.
01[01:46] <Dark_Sage> If anything, I’d say your use of “serenely” doesn’t as accurately fit the context of the scene.
01[01:46] <Dark_Sage> Hmm, natural? I wouldn’t say narration is natural in real life.
01[01:46] <Dark_Sage> That was a narrated line, correct?
[01:47] <Durian> No, it was a thought..
01[01:47] <Dark_Sage> Can’t have been Speedwagon’s.
[01:47] <Durian> It was.
01[01:47] <Dark_Sage> What?
01[01:47] <Dark_Sage> lol
01[01:47] <Dark_Sage> He was thinking about himself in third-person?
[01:47] <Durian> Indeed, he was.
01[01:47] <Dark_Sage> Well, hold on, that does change things.
01[01:48] <Dark_Sage> I suppose the Japanese version is in third-person and both lines were conveying this?
01[01:48] <Dark_Sage> Fucking Japan.
[01:48] <Durian> It happens.
01[01:48] <Dark_Sage> Honestly, I tend to skip the self-third-person (or whatever the term is) in my subs when it appears. Cuz it ain’t fucking natural.
[01:48] <Durian> Third-person is common in literature.
[01:49] <Durian> It is unavoidable.
01[01:49] <Dark_Sage> I’d say it was avoidable here.
[01:50] <Durian> So you would have made it first-person?
[01:50] <Durian> In order to make it naturally gramattical, the tense would need to be changed to future tense.
01[01:51] <Dark_Sage> I wasn’t saying I’d turn it to “I cooly withdraws.” <_<
[01:51] <Durian> Such as “I’ll make my exit.”
01[01:51] <Dark_Sage> Well, I’d add a little bit more to it, like “I suppose I’ll make my exit.” (from that base TL of yours)
01[01:51] <Dark_Sage> But yeah, I’d go with something like that.
[01:51] <Durian> Your other option is to make a relative reference.
[01:52] <Durian> Such as “Jonathan’s out of my hands.”
01[01:52] <Dark_Sage> Fair as well. Though I guess I’m not seeing your issue with those versions.
[01:52] <Durian> To indicate that Speedwagon acknowledges his presence to be unnecessary, and leaves as a result.
01[01:53] <Dark_Sage> And how does “I suppose I’ll make my exit.” not do that?
[01:53] <Durian> The tense is no longer present tense.
01[01:54] <Dark_Sage> Why do you need to make the tense match the Japanese one? I don’t particularly understand that single-minded devotion to ciphering the Japanese script.
[01:57] <Durian> Why change the tense of the original dialog, when tense, grammaticality, and meaning may be preserved in the localization?
01[01:57] <Dark_Sage> Though I suppose I only take fault with it if you’re saying that it’s objectively superior to make tenses match up perfectly with the Japanese script.
01[01:57] <Dark_Sage> I’d say changes are in order if the new text sounds better from a viewer’s perspective, and possibly fits the context better.
01[01:58] <Dark_Sage> I’d say meaning is king, though I have a feeling I have a slightly more liberal definition of “meaning” than you do.
[01:58] <Durian> True, but we cannot deny the fact that what he enunciates will throw viewers off if there is no semblance in the translation, unless obscurity denied a smooth transition.
[01:59] <Durian> Meaning is the most essential of all things that need exist in a faithful translation.
01[01:59] <Dark_Sage> Since everything is dependent upon context, I’m saying what I’m saying under the assumption that it makes sense in context.
[02:01] <Durian> For example, while “I suppose I’ll make my exit” retains the basic meaning that his presence is intrusive, the adjective or semblance of retaining his pride and wits is lost.
[02:01] <Durian> Adverb*
[02:02] <Durian> Meaning and context go hand-in-hand.
01[02:02] <Dark_Sage> You used “skedaddle” though, which would not indicate “retaining pride and wits”
[02:02] <Durian> “Serenely” would imply that he kept his wits about him as he “skedaddled.”
01[02:03] <Dark_Sage> They don’t really match up though.
01[02:03] <Dark_Sage> “He calmly flipped out”
[02:03] <Durian> He didn’t cause a fuss, he didn’t make a scene, he was smooth and serene about making his exit.
01[02:03] <Dark_Sage> Either way, I don’t particularly buy your argument that your translation style is objectively superior to others
01[02:04] <Dark_Sage> Do you understand what skedaddle means, though?
01[02:04] <Dark_Sage> It doesn’t mean “to leave”
[02:04] <Durian> Yes, to make a hasty retreat.
01[02:04] <Dark_Sage> Well there’s a little more flair to it than that
[02:05] <Durian> In this case, it means Speedwagon made a silent (chill, relaxed, smooth) but hasty retreat from the scene (the situation, the predicament.)
[02:06] <Durian> If “shimmy” didn’t have a completely different contextual usage, I might have considered using it.
[02:06] <Durian> So even though it rolls off the tongue even better than “skedaddles,” it pertains to dance.
01[02:07] <Dark_Sage> Your devotion to alliteration severely limits your vocabulary choices
01[02:07] <Dark_Sage> I wouldn’t say “shimmy” or “skedaddle” is appropriate
[02:08] <Durian> It’s not the alliteration that limits the vocabulary, it’s the era.
01[02:08] <Dark_Sage> You can’t honestly expect me to believe you limited your vocabulary to that which was only available in the 1920s or whenever it took place.
[02:09] <Durian> I would’ve loved to use “splits,” but that didn’t gain the meaning of “retreating” until much later.
[02:09] <Durian> 1888.
[02:09] <Durian> This time, I have a much wider range of vocabulary to use, until 1939.
01[02:09] <Dark_Sage> There is absolutely no way you were translating with an 1888 dictionary at your side
[02:10] <Durian> The Oxford Dictionary is a lovely resource.
01[02:10] <Dark_Sage> You have an old one?
[02:10] <Durian> It gives me the earliest documentation of a word’s usage and its meanings.
[02:10] <Durian> 2009.
01[02:11] <Dark_Sage> You did that with every word in your translation? Well that’s commendable, though again I don’t find your translation decisions objectively superior to others’
[02:11] <Durian> And that is fine.
[02:11] <Durian> I don’t expect the same devotion from every translator.
[02:12] <Durian> I am my own person, and I have my own methods about me.
01[02:12] <Dark_Sage> Well you still seem to think yours is better, from your use of “devotion”
[02:12] <Durian> Devotion towards working towards the best interpretation.
[02:12] <Durian> Since mine has critics, it is obviously not the best.
01[02:12] <Dark_Sage> Every translation has critics
[02:12] <Durian> And I invite dialog, which is why we’re still talking right now.
[02:13] <Durian> On that note, “gee whilikers” originated from Britain.
[02:13] <Durian> In the early 19th century.
01[02:14] <Dark_Sage> Fair enough, but then you’re being willfully ignorant of its meaning in present-day English and how present-day viewers would interpret it
[02:14] <Durian> As a term for disparagement, much along the lines of other minced oaths, such as “Good God.”
01[02:14] <Dark_Sage> It sounds like something from Leave it to Beaver.
[02:15] <Durian> But remember the setting, the viewers are watching set in the 19th Century.
[02:15] <Durian> The meaning in the 19th Century is obsolete in the 21st Century.
[02:15] <Durian> “Naught” is now an obsolete form of “not.”
01[02:16] <Dark_Sage> The meaning of naught is retained. People still know what it is.
[02:16] <Durian> However, when it was used, it can mean either “nothing” or “not.”
[02:16] <Durian> Today, its an antiquated term for “nothing.”
[02:17] <Durian> Immersion is very important for a target audience.
01[02:18] <Dark_Sage> I don’t think your target audience is the audience you’ve found, just as an aside
[02:18] <Durian> Otherwise, you’ll end up with a unimmersive catastrophe of a movie, such as Uwe Boll’s Dungeons and Dragons.
01[02:18] <Dark_Sage> I don’t think comparing every translation but yours to Dungeons and Dragons is fair.
[02:19] <Durian> I was not.
[02:19] <Durian> I was emphasizing the importance of immersion.
01[02:19] <Dark_Sage> You continue to insist that your translation style is the best, based on the qualifications you yourself are setting.
[02:19] <Durian> Am I being unreasonable, if not unrealistic, to do so?
[02:20] <Durian> I know there are people who appreciate what I am doing, not for the alliteration, but for the immersion.
01[02:21] <Dark_Sage> I think you are. Certainly I understand your argument that immersion in the period is important. But I don’t think that gives your translation an innate superiority over what others are doing.
[02:21] <Durian> Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and I am not insinuating that my style is the best.
01[02:21] <Dark_Sage> It honestly seems that you are to me.
[02:21] <Durian> It is flawed, because I have not done everything that I could to make it even more faithful.
[02:22] <Durian> I have not studied the scriptures of Queen Victoria’s era, rellished in the plays of Shakespeare, or delved into the tomes of the Magna Carta.
01[02:22] <Dark_Sage> See, there you go again “It’s not the best because it’s not the most faithful.” but since it’s clear that you’re trying harder than the others to be “faithful”, yours will rise to the top.
01[02:22] <Dark_Sage> But that’s not the only definition of quality.
[02:23] <Durian> I’ll agree that the most fundamental thing is to take the audience into consideration, before everything.
01[02:24] <Dark_Sage> I think the audience you found thinks your subs are more funny than immersive.
[02:24] <Durian> The audience in question is not my main target.
[02:24] <Durian> You could say there’s a divide.
01[02:25] <Dark_Sage> That’s fair.
01[02:25] <Dark_Sage> I think the audience you’re looking for generally went over to MMM
01[02:25] <Dark_Sage> Though that’s not really your fault.
[02:25] <Durian> From the few screens I saw, I wasn’t ecstatic.
01[02:26] <Dark_Sage> They have issues, yeah. Oldsub style doesn’t work so well these days.
01[02:26] <Dark_Sage> And I can’t speak for translation accuracy, so maybe they fucked up on that end.
[02:26] <Durian> However, regarding my attitude towards other translations, yes, I would love to be the best.
01[02:27] <Dark_Sage> That’s fine. Admirable, even. I just don’t think applying objectivity to translation style differences is particularly something that we can do.
[02:27] <Durian> I am working towards that goal, but it may never be reached in my lifetime.
[02:28] <Durian> You’re telling me to come down to earth, then?
01[02:28] <Dark_Sage> Meet me halfway at least. Nothing wrong with ambition, but reality should still factor in.
01[02:29] <Dark_Sage> An objectively superior translation style… now that’s something I would really like to see.
[02:29] <Durian> Do you understand what I’ve been trying to achieve, though?
01[02:29] <Dark_Sage> I understand your ideals, yes.
[02:30] <Durian> How would you go about an objective translation style? Would it be strange to assume you have an example?
01[02:31] <Dark_Sage> I don’t believe there’s an universally superior translation style, at least not in a detailed fashion.
[02:31] <Durian> Then let’s limit it to fansubs.
[02:31] <Durian> Is there any group that currently meets your criteria?
01[02:32] <Dark_Sage> No, and I don’t think there ever will be. Because while I can enjoy one translation style more than another, I would think the opposite could be true of another person. And who am I to say their enjoyment is inferior to my own?
01[02:32] <Dark_Sage> Some people prefer to be immersed in period language. Others want it updated to common tongue.
01[02:33] <Dark_Sage> Who is objectively right? I don’t think you could say either is.
[02:33] <Durian> Then it’s a good thing there are groups to choose from.
[02:33] <Durian> If I could suggest my own, that I feel was the most superior in objective translations…
[02:33] <Durian> ANBU’s Astro Fighter Sunred.
[02:34] <Durian> That translation was one of the best, and that translator influenced me greatly, amongst others.
01[02:35] <Dark_Sage> Can’t say I’m familiar with it, but I’ll trust that it was quite enjoyable.
[02:35] <Durian> It was their work that influenced me to begin keeping faith to the setting of the media, from speech to demeanor to implications.
[02:35] <Durian> Everything about that translation may be considered my standard.
[02:36] <Durian> My personal standard.
[02:37] <Durian> Again, amongst many others.
01[02:37] <Dark_Sage> Right.
[02:38] <Durian> I’m glad we had this conversation.
01[02:38] <Dark_Sage> Same here. I love discussions like these.
[02:38] <Durian> Even though I will continue to refine my skills and vision, I am glad there are alternatives for the viewers to choose from.
[02:39] <Durian> I am trying to usher a new standard, and influence others from my work on this, and future shows.
[02:40] <Durian> I have illusions of grandeur, but if I can influence even one person with my ideals, then I will know my deeds were not for naught.
01[02:40] <Dark_Sage> Hm…
01[02:40] <Dark_Sage> If you wanna write a post about your translation ideals, I don’t mind offering ya a platform to do so on Crymore. I may not necessarily agree 100% with what you’re saying, but I do think it’s interesting and I’d bet others will too.
[02:42] <Durian> I appreciate the offer, but I must decline :)
[02:42] <Durian> I was never gifted in the blogosphere… nor was I very persuasive, unless in debates such as the one we just had.
[02:43] <Durian> If you want though, you are free to summarize our discussions.
[02:44] <Durian> Just keep it all in context ;)
01[02:45] <Dark_Sage> Heh, I feel it would be difficult for me to appropriately convey your ideals (though I may do so sometime)
[02:45] <Durian> You could call me a loon for all I care, just so long as you present evidence of my looniness.
01[02:46] <Dark_Sage> I would only do so for entertainment purposes because your ideals are valid (though again I don’t necessarily agree with their objective superiority)
[02:47] <Durian> Heheh.
01[02:47] <Dark_Sage> But yeah, thanks for the discussion. I had a good time. I’m gonna disappear from IRC and finish off a couple of anime eps before passing out until noon. I’m sure we’ll have another chance for a good discussion in the future.
[02:47] <Durian> I would like it, however, if you could acknowledge that I am not completely bereft of knowledge in English.
01[02:48] <Dark_Sage> I acknowledge that. You can delete my post on gg if you want, that’s cool with me.
01[02:48] <Dark_Sage> It’s just… you need a good editor if you’re not gonna do second-passes on your TL
[02:48] <Durian> That’s not my blog to control, so you’ll have to go through Koda for that.
01[02:48] <Dark_Sage> Oh, then just leave it
[02:49] <Durian> I tried, today especially, but I came home too late.
01[02:49] <Dark_Sage> I think gg has issues with editors is the main thing. What, koda and Xythar are the only good ones? And Xythar takes like 3 hours.
[02:49] <Durian> Koda has faith in my efforts, which is why she doesn’t change very much.
01[02:49] <Dark_Sage> Oh, she edited JoJo?
[02:50] <Durian> It’s more of a skim than a full edit.
[02:50] <Durian> So whenever I find my own faults, I take it very personally that I’ve failed her faith.
[02:51] <Durian> Everything will receive an eventual reissue.
01[02:51] <Dark_Sage> From what I saw it was a very light skim because I think we can both agree most of what I found was objectively incorrect English
[02:52] <Durian> If you don’t mind me asking, which line would that be?\
[02:52] <Durian> The most memorable.
01[02:52] <Dark_Sage> You spelling Mademoiselle differently three times is most memorable.
[02:53] <Durian> That was my error for thinking that I spelled the same word incorrectly once, when it was actually three times.
[02:53] <Durian> MS Word is rather ridiculous when it comes to finding some errors.
01[02:53] <Dark_Sage> Bad alliterations, incorrect tenses, inaccurate word choice, …
01[02:54] <Dark_Sage> Lines like “Y-You are demon”
01[02:54] <Dark_Sage> More tense issues, issues with pluralization
01[02:54] <Dark_Sage> Incorrect capitalization
01[02:55] <Dark_Sage> General incorrectness, possibly relating to tense misunderstandings
01[02:55] <Dark_Sage> typos
[02:55] <Durian> Missing indicators, typos, and grammatical errors were addressed.
[02:55] <Durian> Don’t worry, I know how terrible “y-you are demon”
[02:56] <Durian> sounds without an “a.”
01[02:56] <Dark_Sage> Just saying it deserved an editor.
01[02:56] <Dark_Sage> Maybe someone who graduated from college this time.
[02:56] <Durian> I am that editor, when I can have the script timed before release.
01[02:57] <Dark_Sage> Well, I personally believe that the editor and TL should be different people. A fresh face to a script can sometimes make all the difference.
01[02:57] <Dark_Sage> Someone pointing out things that you didn’t notice in the first place.
01[02:57] <Dark_Sage> And no, I’m not volunteering. :P
01[02:58] <Dark_Sage> Though I understand you’re only working with what you’ve got. gg’s specialty is not editors.
[02:58] <Durian> Unfortunately… for my style, there are very few who could edit my lines, aside from catching the errors of episode 8.
[02:59] <Durian> I only know one person in the whole fansubbing world that could possibly edit Victorian English, but they were not available.
[02:59] <Durian> However, for basic omissions, my eyes may suffice.
01[02:59] <Dark_Sage> I don’t think you’re giving today’s editors enough credit. But fair enough. At least a decent QC with a QC report.
[03:01] <Durian> The only editor I can ever trust is another native English speaker who maintains native proficiency in Japanese, unless there are editors who would understand my ideals from seeing one line.
[03:02] <Durian> I only know three, and they’re all becoming doctors in their own fields.
01[03:02] <Dark_Sage> I thought you trusted koda
[03:02] <Durian> They all left fansubbing for better pastures a long time ago.
[03:02] <Durian> She’s my sis.
[03:02] <Durian> Not literally, but in spirit.
01[03:03] <Dark_Sage> Which overrides your basic qualifications?
[03:03] <Durian> She has faith in my work, which is why she only skims through it.
01[03:03] <Dark_Sage> And you’ve seen how well that ends.
[03:03] <Durian> Again, I am responsible for my own shortcomings.
01[03:04] <Dark_Sage> Well all right, whatever gets ya off.
[03:04] <Durian> I’ll try to interject before it reaches brief editing, so I can have my pass.
[03:05] <Durian> That didn’t work today, because I was out at the time it occured.
01[03:05] <Dark_Sage> Don’t need to explain it to me. I wait for Commie’s version. :P
[03:05] <Durian> So long as we have an understanding.
[03:05] <Durian> Have a pleasant day.
01[03:06] <Dark_Sage> I shall!
01[03:06] <Dark_Sage> And you as well.
[03:06] <Durian> Good night.
01[03:06] <Dark_Sage> \quit naito
Session Close: Sun Dec 16 03:06:35 2012

 

tl;dr:

Medaka_Box_Abnormal-Maguro_Kurokami-Talk_to_the_Hand
Have some words

gg’s JoJo releases are translated by a guy with a linguistics degree. The subtitles are not intended to be funny. Rather, they’re intended to match the time period in which they take place. He also believes this devotion to period speak makes his translation objectively better than the other groups’. If you’re laughing at the subs, the real joke is probably you.

36 thoughts on “Archives: gg’s JoJo is supposed to be period, not funny”

      • Nah. Durian’s got way more self-confidence than I, not to mention “ideals.” I’m idealistic as heck and I have many great, abysmal, and mediocre ideas (between which I often have difficulty distinguishing), but if you ever catch me claiming that someone doesn’t “understand my ideals,” please shoot me on the spot. I’m not to be trusted with such lofty things as ideals.

        (Other small but notable morphological differences between the Durian and Margaanoid species include my painful awareness that I make many fumblefingered mistakes requiring QC lest I confuse left and right again, the fact I use unpunctuated sentences with contractions on IRC, and my feeling that subtitles neither can nor should be “immersive”—”consistent,” “clever,” “fun to read,” “appropriate to the source,” “smooth,” and many other goals are all fine, but “immersive” is just too much to ask of words at the bottom of your screen.)

        In short, if we ever collaborated I’d probably just let Durian do all the work.

        Reply

  4. So, by his reasoning, Michiko to Hatchin’s English subtitles should have been in Spanish/Portuguese/Whatever Latin language they speak in non-specific fake Latin America.

    Whatever, the author is dead, and I sure as hell didn’t watch gg’s JoJo because I thought it was the epitome of period colloquialisms.

    Reply

  5. Looking back on it, he did make a lot of errors and would have benefited from having someone else look it over more thoroughly, but his subs did entertain me, and I can respect them for what he was trying to do, even if the whole idea was on the verge of batshit insane.

    Reply

  6. I can’t think of any jokes to go with that “first draft” release.
    Hadena’s releases are actually amazing it’s just that they release the first draft and not the last. HAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAA Ban me please

    Reply

  8. ” You continue to insist that your translation style is the best, based on the qualifications you yourself are setting.”
    I don’t get it. Who else’s qualifications is he meant to judge it on? Not yours, you said later.

    Reply

    • Because his style isn’t objectively better.
      Example: say you have a problem with two solutions X and Y.
      You choose solution X because of your personal reasons and claim that solution X is the best for everyone.

      While someone else prefers solution Y because of their personal reasons.

      Neither is objectively better, but saying that one is best, just makes it sound like you’re an asshole (or a fansubber).

      Reply

  9. <Dark_Sage> I think gg has issues with editors is the main thing. What, koda and Xythar are the only good ones? And Xythar takes like 3 hours.
    <Dark_Sage> Though I understand you’re only working with what you’ve got. gg’s specialty is not editors.

    I take exception to this statement, if only because your ancient logs weren’t prescient enough to list me as a brilliant gg editor & ESL teacher. No, but seriously, I think gg’s main weakness as a group is the general dearth of QC in most of our releases. Our no-simul “policy” also peeves me in this era where 95% of shows get simul’d.

    I think it says a lot about our TL/edit on SnK that (without any QC work besides my second edit pass & spellcheck) we still tied for best release.

    Reply

  10. All of this reminds me of the hash that was made of ‘Hyouge Mono’ (the abuse of pseudo-medieval language, not the appalling delays in release).

    I suggested to both Huzzah [RIP] and Doremi that they have their staff read Malory’s ‘Le Morte d’Arthur’ during the long fucking gaps between episode releases if they wanted to get a good grasp on the Immersion they were trying so abysmally to create.

    “An it please thee,” I said to them, “but a cursory reading of this great work may open thine eyes, and thou wilt then gain understanding of the speech thou seekest so vainly to emulate withal. Foreasmuch as thou dost struggle and labour, thine efforts to date have been but calamitous, and yielded but little joy.”

    But alas, mine efforts were confounded and came to naught, maugre my own good intentions, and my words were brast asunder upon the armour of their egos, and all was left in disarray.

    Reply

      • Huzzah’s wasn’t. Huzzah’s translator is/was Drama, who unfortunately retired from fansubbing just as I was about to help them with their olde English – so you would have had some good “verily”s and whatnot :D

        And I was under the impression that Doremi didn’t try to replicate Huzzah’s speech patterns for their releases…

        Reply

          • If that’s true, I have to wonder what Durian’s academic credentials actually are. I don’t claim to be an authority—I studied literary theory and picked up my Middle English along the way—but I’m proficient enough to be pretty sure if I showed any of those Hyouge Mono lines to my Writers of Arthurian Quests professor, I would find his meaty Scottish fist buried halfway into my head.

            (One also needs must wonder to which “tomes” of the Magna Carta he may be referring, exactly how “the scriptures of Queen Victoria’s era” differ from those preceding them, and whether his use of “rellish” was intended to evoke that Shakespearean milieu of unstandardized spelling.)

            I’m happy to believe he’s got real academic chops, but in what subject?

            Reply

            • Well, I cannot confirm nor deny this scurrilous rumour, but it seems strange that a mostly one-man outfit would claim irl issues as a reason to stop subbing a series only he was subbing and then join up with gg.

              Drama was also quite excited that I was going to be helping him with his Shakespearian terminology and didn’t mention his own credentials at all, so while I’m not dismissing the idea of the two being the same person, something just doesn’t add up here.

              Reply

  11. What I got from this article confirmed for me that gg suffer from the same issue as commie: whenever they try to be funny, or too clever for their own good, they trip themselves up.

    Reply

  12. My alliteration is sound.

    I think the fact that I laughed at this makes me qualified to wade in on this issue ;)

    Anyone who has to parade their qualifications in the face of (constructive) criticism clearly doesn’t believe their own work is winning the battle for them. You can’t hide behind your qualifications. I would never dream of even relating my editing to my qualifications (and let’s face it, my quals in English outstrip this guy), and I’ve only ever mentioned them if a) a certain point is within my designated field of expertise, and b) if it’s needed to show that I do know what I’m talking about. Most of the time, I let my persuasive language do the work for me when arguing a point :D

    However, using my aforementioned qualifications, I can tell that this guy’s talking out of his ass, unless he truly thinks every Victorian alliterated every word in every sentence. Which is unlikely. So where’s the immersion, exactly? :S

    Reply

  13. Recondite reasoning rarely requires rationality, rendering realistic rhetorical wrangling repetitively ridiculous.

    Or so I think.

    Reply

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